Paging the Torque Converter Guru's and retailers on this site

420

Professional Smack Talker
Joined
May 27, 2002
I just read something very interesting, and would like to hear your technical response to it:

http://converter.com/whatsnew.htm

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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE 9-12 SPACESHIP TYPE CONVERTERS

All late model transmissions regardless of make have a clutch in the torque converter. Precision Industries was the first performance torque converter company to design and successfully manufacture a small diameter clutch assembly that would survive the abuses of high performance late model vehicles. We had to manufacture a special front cover, clutch plate and develop a clutch lining that would handle pulse width modulation. This is the reason we use a special billet front cover not just for the good looks! Our competitors in the performance industry do not have the technical ability or the capability and are just too cheap to follow our lead. They are using all stock front cover and clutch parts designed and built for 4 and 6 cylinder vehicles to compete with Precision Industries. When OBDII appeared they suddenly found out that using these inferior 4 and 6 cylinder front cover and clutch parts was not going to work so they started using 15 year old technology, the so called 9-12 or 9-11 spaceship type of torque converter. What these torque converters consist of are parts from 1- $10.00 and 1- $35.00 wrecking yard torque converter core along with a steel ring to mate the 2 converters together. Using these parts equates to a value for this type of torque converter to no more than $300.00. While this type of torque converter seemed to solve the torque converter clutch problem it instantly created more serious problems. One advantage to using a small diameter torque converter is that it has a lot less rotating mass than the stock 12” torque converter but with the thick steel plate to mount the 2 stock torque converter halves together to make the 9-12 you end up with more rotating mass than the stock 12” torque converter. A more critical problem with the 9-12 spaceship type torque converter is the turbine wash over of this design. The turbine wash over is so strong that the large diameter torque converter clutch is pushed up against the front cover and drags during stall and acceleration. This action kills acceleration and causes undue stress to the torque converter clutch. What this means is this style of torque converter will never accelerate as well as the small diameter torque converter meaning slower 60 ft. and ET times. This style of torque converter would probably work satisfactorily in Grandma’s car but is not something you would want for a performance torque converter. Our competitors must be laughing all the way to the bank selling this inferior product for the price they are asking!

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So let's hear it guys....... 9/11 converters.... Waste of money compared to the alternatives?
 
looks like terry has sunk to a new low to sell his undesirable products by either writing this junk himself or allowing some other person to do it without trying to stop them.WITHOUT REAL WORLD TESTING OR ANOTHER VALID FORM OF ARGUMENT.and as far as rotating mass i can see the argument BUT by trying to discredit something that has worked for so many people just shows that the statement certainly needs to be rethought out.a 1/4 mile shootout is in order to test one against the other and ill supply a 9/11 or protorque unit if someone local wants to accompany me to etown ,atco ,island or the hamptons to test one of these against their prescision unit.anyone interested?im serious.contact the shop.and believe me,if the prescision unit outperforms what we are peddaling ill be the first one to post it.
 
Sounds like another crock of crap from a desperate company with a large number of disatisfied customers. It also sounds like a cheap shot at Bruce, and the guy in Louisiana that has been building the 9/11 converters since about 15 years ago.

If I had a nickel for every post on this board that had the phrase "help me, they've restalled my PI Vigilante 5 times and they still don't have it right", or the phrase "my PI Vigilante slips 20%+ unlocked", or the phrase "I put in a PI Vigilante and now I can hardly feel my car shift at part throttle", in it, I'd be racing against Greg Anderson and Warren Johnson without a sponsor and having the time of my life.

Oh, and I've been selling racing torque converters for over 20 years, and building transmissions that long too. It's certainly news to me that PI "invented" or even "developed" the billet front cover. In fact, I know the guy who did put the first billet covers on converters. He owns a company that builds converters, but it sure ain't PI.

I wonder what this incredible friction material they "developed" is? I wonder why it takes a whole bunch of their clutches to hold any power. I wonder why they had to put so many clutches in theirs that the converters rub on the flexplate bolts. "Oh yeah, that clicking is normal, so are the shiny spots of the converter and the shiny heads on the flexplate bolts."

"Sure, you get one free restall, but if we can't get it right on the second try, you'll have to give us $200 to restall your $1100 converter that never has worked right even if it takes us 5 tries to get it close." "No, we won't pay you to pull it out if we don't get the stall right, and you'll have to buy your own fluid everytime too." "Yeah, it's SUPPOSED to slip and slide like a 55 Buick DynaFlow, that's what makes it launch so good."
 
Hmmmm.

Now I haven't actually measured these, but I find it hard to believe that a multiple-disc TCC in a billet cover weighs less than an OE 12" TCC piston and converter front.
 
TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, so some cracker has laid out another baseless claim and really should do some homework rather than wasting energy trying to slap themself's on the back. First off, Back when Terry was in the trans business in Fresno California, he came to Rusty at TCS and asked Rusty to get him going in the converter business. Rusty's family has been in the business since 1967, and quoting Rusty"I have forgotten more about the business, than ANYONE at P/I will ever know". ANYTHING that P/I does, was thru the help of TCS. As far as addressing any claims as to if P/I is a superior product, I will defer any reply to that by just pointing to the board members and their testimonials about any converter quality and durability answers. I do know, with P/I claiming to be such a pioneer and innovator, why is it that TCS supplies them with their splined inputs and bearing race surfaces for their converters? Any claim is so easily made on the forum, but when it comes to functionality, see who's converters are standing up and who is getting the grief for constant failure. Anyone can make an argument about the superior quality of their product, but the street is where it's proved out. We win hands down, period. Rusty is responsible for getting Terry into the business, but is in no way responsible for the trouble people are having with P/I converters. And when you actually bother to check it out, Rusty was the first to build a TRUE performance converter. So if you still wanna talk smack, go for it. But I have the customers and vendors to support what I say. Who is laughing all the way to the bank? I would suspect P/I isn't even going to the bank since they have to deal with all these troubles and are here trying to build a name thru baseless arguements rather than building it thru great products and great customer service. Ok I'm spent, have to go recharge my batteries again,,,,,,Mark :D
 
One more thing. You can buy a true Billet 9X11 converter From us for $799. If we are laughing all the way to the bank, I wonder what P/I is doing with the $1,100 they get for an inferior unit?
 
Ask jmidolo about his billet 9X11

Mr Midolo? Does your Billet 9X11 look like it has any junkyard pieces in it?

Bruce
WE4
 
I have had 2 9/11 tcs. One in my Gn that I sold. When it came time to put a TC in my new 6k mile Limited there was only one that I was putting in, the 9/11!

I've driven other tcs also and none are like the 9/11. Unless you've driven one, it's hard to explain. It does not feel like a stall tc till you put your foot in it. Around town it feels like a stocker. The stall has been right the 1st time and I'm very happy with it. I have not gotten to the track yet, hopefully this week, but my billet 3200 spools my t63e just great. I've never had a PI unit, but I, like others have heard the stories over the years. PTS customer service is in a class by itself, Bruce will bend over backwards to help you and get stuff done right, even if it means it may cost some money out of HIS pocket...very few companies like that around. Not a bash against others, just a hi 5 to PTS. I have not seen any junkyard parts that look like this..maybe I'm wrong:

http://community.webshots.com/album/80197042cCsSBH
 
Excellent info folks :) That is EXACTLY what I was looking for..... Thanks for all the input!

- Matt
 
We usually dont use any L/U convertors on high HP applications. We have worked with ATI to build absolutely the best and most efficient non L/U convertor available for those type of cars (and yes, I would supply one for a shootout!!!).
We did have one customer who demanded a L/U converter for his 700 HP stage 2 street car, I called Precision Ind. first, dont remember who I talked to but he was an ASS and I wouldnt have bought that converter if it offered a 2 second ET reduction! We wound up buying a TCS unit from Bruce, it was expensive, it didnt contain any junkyard parts (unlike the "MAJORITY" of the aftermarket conv. manufactuers use) and it gets the hell beat out of it on a regular basis. It has 274", Alum hds, and a PT76 turbo, LOCKED up in overdrive against the rev limiter and it has not failed yet! Some who read this know who I am talking about!!!!! Mony well spent if you gotta have a L/U.On a side not, I have removed at least 3 Vigilante converters and replaced them ATI non lock units and ran faster ETs by at least .2 in all instances. Anyone ever wonder why the Vig. weighs a ton and rattles like a coffee can full of marbles?
Bill Anderson
 
Let's see, an all billet 9X11 with fully prover results on performance or dependability for $799 (is a lot of money) or as one customer told me recently he got a quote for a "slipper" multi disc unit for $1243 (their quote to him). Sounds like an easy question to answer I think. Mark :D
 
Originally posted by EightSecV6
We usually dont use any L/U convertors on high HP applications. We have worked with ATI to build absolutely the best and most efficient non L/U convertor available for those type of cars (and yes, I would supply one for a shootout!!!).
We did have one customer who demanded a L/U converter for his 700 HP stage 2 street car, I called Precision Ind. first, dont remember who I talked to but he was an ASS and I wouldnt have bought that converter if it offered a 2 second ET reduction! We wound up buying a TCS unit from Bruce, it was expensive, it didnt contain any junkyard parts (unlike the "MAJORITY" of the aftermarket conv. manufactuers use) and it gets the hell beat out of it on a regular basis. It has 274", Alum hds, and a PT76 turbo, LOCKED up in overdrive against the rev limiter and it has not failed yet! Some who read this know who I am talking about!!!!! Mony well spent if you gotta have a L/U.On a side not, I have removed at least 3 Vigilante converters and replaced them ATI non lock units and ran faster ETs by at least .2 in all instances. Anyone ever wonder why the Vig. weighs a ton and rattles like a coffee can full of marbles?

Bill
Couyld you get tell us were the ATI picked up the ET? Was it in the 60 ft ?Or down the track ? What ET range and 60 ft are we talking about ? From what to what with the change in convertor's

Thanks Mark
 
Mark,
We have used the ATI in cars running as slow as 12.0 to as fast as 8.0. ATI uses an all aluminum stator, I wont get into the specifics but what it will allow you to do is run a high stall to spool a larger turbo and it couples VERY tight at the top. We have the exclusive deal on the 200 conv, 8" and 9" and the 9.5" fuel/blown (for the TH400/glide) turbo converters, I dont want to sound crappy but some people have called ATI and bought their conv. direct for $995. I really dont know why???? I sell them for $120 cheaper than that :D :D :D . This has happened several times and J.Beattie(owner) has to call me so I can spec it out for him, wastes alot of time and costs YOU money!!!!!! The money is not the issue, just kind of bothers me a little......
I can assure you the ATI unit WE sell will smoke any non locking unit out there in 60ft. E.T. or MPH. If you have a 72 or larger turbo, you will really notice the difference, we dont have to make the conv. real loose to get it spooled up (which in MOST cases kills the MPH and costs ET because it wont couple). If you need a L/U unit, Bruce's TCS unit is definately the way to go, it is the ONLY L/U we HAVE NOT been able to break while locked up with some horsepower I hope that answers your questions.
Bill
 
Thanks Bill
I Like to try new T/C's , I have used or installed most .

This ati unit sounds like a winner .will be the next one I try .I have a 9-11 rgt now ,but the tranny and T/C are on there way back to Bruce for some upgrades .

Mark
 
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