New to E85. Few questions

[KevinB]

Ok, first off is a walbro and stock lines ok for e85? I'm only going to use e85 for a month or two then I'm switching back to race gas for the Buick events.

Next, I have an accel gen7 dfi with wideband. Do I still tune for my normal a/f ratios? Like wot I'm at 11.1 or so and idle is like 14.0. Do I add fuel here or the VE table? I'm just want ting to put a cheaper gas in the car and cruise around in a high ten second tune.

And last one for now is how far has some one gone with stock lines, double pumper and 96# injectors? My duty cycle running 135+mph with race gas was like 80% with this setup, it was like 82% running double pumper, 96 injectors and a -8 feed in my old car running 9.6 @ 142

 

[jasjamz]

Is this your car? If so, boost needs to start low like 18psi,A/F 10.2-10.5 and IIRC you dont use a knock sensor or do you? I started playing with E85 and 93 on a 50/50 mixture. 23/22 of timing and had maxed out a set of 75s at 22-23psi on a ported iron head 8.5:1 234ci motor. DP intank, -8 feed and stock feed for the return. Stock 02s were 790-800.(Like 11.0:1 on my WB) Felt the difference in torque!! Now I have ran 735 02s at the trap on 110oct but didn't try it again. If I compare it to my WB it's like 11.7:1. I think you would max out in the 11's and the regular Walbro didn't want E85 ran through them but I did it anyway. I hope this is of some help to you. Be carful, I have heard E85 does not knock like the regular stuff. Kinda like "if it does knock you WILL know it".

 

[KevinB]

Yes this is for my car

Plan is to make a 100% switch over to e85 eventually if I like the results testing at low boost. If I do the switch I will get bigger lines, pump, injectors, etc.

I just emptied all the race fuel out and am going to put 5 gallons in and run that dry to make sure all the race fuel is out. I don't use the knock sensor but read the plugs after every pass. As long as I creep into the boost I will find the limit I would imagine before I brake parts.
I still have to turn the boost down also. I'm thinking this is going to be fun! I will start low and work my way up. The main reason for this is to drive the damn car.

 

[norbs]

Whats wrong with race gas though or are you talking street use e85? I heard the magic number for e85 is 11.0 on the WB set on gasoline.

 

[KevinB]

Whats wrong with race gas though or are you talking street use e85? I heard the magic number for e85 is 11.0 on the WB set on gasoline.

Street use. Race gas is fine put too expensive to drive around on.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Ack!

Step up on the filtration.. Got a set on the bench, now. E85 has deposited some of the rubber hose lining in the baskets..Some mysterious looking silver flakes too...
Sorry bout the quality.. Gettin shaky with the camera on macro!:biggrin:
The filter media in these baskets USED to be white.
E85 w/ rubber hoses, 1- 90M filter and 1- 10M...
We're thinking the silver/brass looking dust is tank materials, and perhaps bronze bushings in the pump???

The meth guys are using 3 filters after the pump, and no filter baskets. Better to pump some dirt thru the inj along w/ fuel, vs no fuel and a toasted engine, I guess. I'm not so sure this idea wouldn't work w/ "corn likker" too.

 

[jasjamz]

Chuck, how many microns do you suggest? Or maybe a filter before the rail?

 

[Chuck Leeper]

If it..

Chuck, how many microns do you suggest? Or maybe a filter before the rail?

was my engine, I'd use 3 -10m filters. 2 at least, and clean them often. Better too often, then you can adjust the cleaning cycle as the inspections dictate...
With teflon and stainless I'd do 2....

 

[Turbo Loyd]

Walbro and stock lines ok for e85?

I have an accel gen7 dfi with wideband.

Hi Kevin

Your home made Walbro double pumper set up and stock lines should be fine with E-85. Watch your fuel pressure as E-85 will clean any junk out of your fuel tank and deposit it in your fuel filter.

I have run E-85 in the Blue Regal pitted near you at Buick Race day Sunday since April 2009 and have only had to change the stock fuel filter once, so the fuel system was apparently really clean. I have changed the injectors and there was no black gunk in the fuel rail or injectors thank goodness. I pulled the running Walbro pump out only to put in a DeatschWerks pump. It had been pumping E-85 for three years without problems,

When I first converted I had 83 lb injectors with a decent gasoline program in a FAST Bank to Bank ECM so just changed the injector size in the ECM fuel parameters to 60 lb/hr. By the calculations it should have been 55 lb/hr, but it just ran better with the 60 lb/hr constant there. Putting in the false injector size forced the computer to scale the injector duty cycle longer allowing my tune with gasoline to run pretty good, on E-85. With E-85 you may have to bump up your cold start fueling a bit. With your 96 lb injectors I would start out telling the DFI you have 70 lb/hr injectors, to scale the fueling.

Folks are all over the map for the A/F ratios, but yours sounds fairly close and would be a great place to start. I have tried both leaner and richer, than your stated A/F ratios.

Jamie Wolcott shared her A/F map with me while I was adjusting mine at Buick Race day. She runs 11.4 a/f on the gasoline scale at 30 psi boost. Jamie uses 120 lb injectors and an in-tank double pumper arrangement, with the stock fuel system to make her 10.20ish runs in her hot air GN. This may be toward the lean edge, and is near where the blue Regal made it's maximum power. i tried richer mixtures and it definitely slowed the car down, but may be safer in the heat. As jasjamz advised start out with lower boost and work up, to whatever boost you can push at near 100 percent duty cycle, with your set up.

Have fun with your car this summer

 

[sykegn]

Loyd.. are you sure you know what you are talking about? Your car only dynoed about another 100rwhp over mine and we both have a very similar set-up.

 

[Turbo Loyd]

Loyd.. are you sure you know what you are talking about? Your car only dynoed about another 100rwhp over mine and we both have a very similar set-up.

At best a good guess, plus I found out the fuel pump in the car at the time was a Walbro 307 not the 340 I thought. That explained the 100% duty cycles and the scary A/F ratios on the data logger.

 

[KevinB]

Awesome post Loyd. Thanks for all that

 

[turbocliff]

Kevin - I am running e85 on my street car with twin walbro double pumper in tank set up, 120# injectors, -8 supply line, and stock return. Seen 75% duty cycle with 70% ethanol content at 25-26psi with billet67 turbo and 575rwhp.

 

[KevinB]

Kevin - I am running e85 on my street car with twin walbro double pumper in tank set up, 120# injectors, -8 supply line, and stock return. Seen 75% duty cycle with 70% ethanol content at 25-26psi with billet67 turbo and 575rwhp.

That's great numbers. If I could come close to that for my street tune I'd be very happy.

Is it possible to get c16 numbers out of e85?

I see summit has a test tube kit to test the ethanal %. May go pick that up.

 

[turbocliff]

That's great numbers. If I could come close to that for my street tune I'd be very happy.

Is it possible to get c16 numbers out of e85?

I see summit has a test tube kit to test the ethanal %. May go pick that up.

I think it is possible to be close to or match C16 numbers, additionally spool up tends to be a couple hundred rpm quicker. Testing the fuel is a must. I have a GM flex fuel sensor monitored by my proefi, but we tuned on fuel from a local station that was 70% ethanol, and my first fill up at another station was 80% ethanol... so it varies dramatically. I may turn mine up some more soon...

 

[KevinB]

She's running on the corn fuel right now Haven't driven it yet, but I did what Loyd said and turned the injector setting down on my dfi. Basically fooled it into thinking my 96#'s are 70#'s. Surprisingly my correction at idle isn't bad. I'm not on true e85 yet though. I had 118 rocketbrand in the stock tank and ran the pump until it didn't pick up any more then added 5 gallons of e85 so it's probably 2 gals of race and 5 e85. I will mess around on this until until it's almost empty then put more e85 in it. Hope to go to the track this weekend and try this out. Definitely turning it way down to start off with.

Getting ready to order this: Quick Fuel 36-E85 Quick Fuel E85 Carburetors

Figure it's a cheap way of seeing the percentage.

Don't know if it's in my head or what but seems like the car starts up instantly???

 

[KevinB]

Spooled it up on the tbrake. Seems faster and it's about 90 freaking degrees and crazy humidity. Seems like it spooled faster, didn't have the lap top on so I'm clueless on what the a/f was at when the converter was at it's stall.

This has got me all pumped up Can't wait to drive the living sh!t out of this car on $3.15 gas and have it almost on kill:biggrin:

 

[turbocliff]

Spooled it up on the tbrake. Seems faster and it's about 90 freaking degrees and crazy humidity. Seems like it spooled faster, didn't have the lap top on so I'm clueless on what the a/f was at when the converter was at it's stall.

This has got me all pumped up Can't wait to drive the living sh!t out of this car on $3.15 gas and have it almost on kill:biggrin:

LOL! Yea I'm not turning back on my street car either. I've heard spool up is typically around 2-300rpm quicker on E85 than leaded fuel, but didnt test on my car, and with the E85 and a precision billet 6768.... its like driving a blower car on the street lol. Not only is there no "lag"... you can barely even identify "spool up"... its just ON!

 

[BEATAV8]

Awesome post Loyd. Thanks for all that

X2 Good post Lloyd

Interesting setup Jamie has with 120's, double pumper, and otherwise stock fuel system. I'm setting up to run something very similar.

 

[Kip]

Don't know if it's in my head or what but seems like the car starts up instantly???

The testing we have with it showed the same thing and better throttle response.

Happy testing, Kip