New hotair intakes underway!
- Thread starter national84
- Start date
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
Just a quick update.......
The Wh-1 is up and running...a little over 125 miles on the clock with the replacement power plant. It seems to get stronger everyday, and we have about 98% of the bugs worked out after the swap. Its been 8 yrs since I fired this engine...man does it feel good to roast some bridgestones again!
Welding was pretty much completed last night, the intake is almost ready for the flowbench. A little gasket matching and we should be ready for the trial runs.
Here's the plan:
Run 1: stock hotair intake
Run2: stock 86-87 intake
Run3: JSM modified hotair intake
After flow numbers are in, we will dyno the car.
Pretty much same testing scenario.
Run 1: stock setup, the way it sits
Run 2: JSM intake with no intercooler, piped directly to the intake
Run 3: JSM intake and 86-87 intercooler in stock location
The Wh-1 is up and running...a little over 125 miles on the clock with the replacement power plant. It seems to get stronger everyday, and we have about 98% of the bugs worked out after the swap. Its been 8 yrs since I fired this engine...man does it feel good to roast some bridgestones again!
Welding was pretty much completed last night, the intake is almost ready for the flowbench. A little gasket matching and we should be ready for the trial runs.
Here's the plan:
Run 1: stock hotair intake
Run2: stock 86-87 intake
Run3: JSM modified hotair intake
After flow numbers are in, we will dyno the car.
Pretty much same testing scenario.
Run 1: stock setup, the way it sits
Run 2: JSM intake with no intercooler, piped directly to the intake
Run 3: JSM intake and 86-87 intercooler in stock location
NATIONAL84 / TYPHOON
Any new pix of the WH-1 engine with new intake? This new intake should kick some serious AZZ
. Keep up the good work. I can't wait to see the dyno result, because no one has ever approached it the way you guy are going about .
Thanks
Chuck
Any new pix of the WH-1 engine with new intake? This new intake should kick some serious AZZ
. Keep up the good work. I can't wait to see the dyno result, because no one has ever approached it the way you guy are going about .Thanks
Chuck
Pics should be soon.
Intake is not yet on the WH1, as we have some baseline testing to do.
the WH1 did just complete a 350 mile trip tonight, no problems. 3:30 am right now, time for bed I think.
Pics should be updated on jsmanufacturing.com gallery by the weekend.
Intake is not yet on the WH1, as we have some baseline testing to do.
the WH1 did just complete a 350 mile trip tonight, no problems. 3:30 am right now, time for bed I think.
Pics should be updated on jsmanufacturing.com gallery by the weekend.
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
Great news!!!!!!
The new intake flat kicked the flow bench's AZZ!
We outflowed the stock intake, the stock intake with a port job, the 86-87 intake, as a matter of fact, we outflowed the stock head!
Thats right, the new intake design flowed more than we could push through the stock 86-87 GN head that we used at the flow bench. Unfortunately we did not have any heads that were "worked", so lets just say grind away on those heads boys, this intake will more than suffice!
Jeff is working up some numbers to explain our findings, so stay tuned for further info!
I wanna thank Jerry Mccoy and his crew at Mccoy Motorsports, as well as High Tech racing engines and their crew as well for the use of their flow equipment. BTW www.tobefast.com that's the Mccoy website.
The new intake flat kicked the flow bench's AZZ!
We outflowed the stock intake, the stock intake with a port job, the 86-87 intake, as a matter of fact, we outflowed the stock head!
Thats right, the new intake design flowed more than we could push through the stock 86-87 GN head that we used at the flow bench. Unfortunately we did not have any heads that were "worked", so lets just say grind away on those heads boys, this intake will more than suffice!
Jeff is working up some numbers to explain our findings, so stay tuned for further info!
I wanna thank Jerry Mccoy and his crew at Mccoy Motorsports, as well as High Tech racing engines and their crew as well for the use of their flow equipment. BTW www.tobefast.com that's the Mccoy website.
As Mike Mentioned the new intake did better than expected.
We felt it would not be a real test to just flow an intake alone without using a head. It is the Sytem we are concerned about and not just 1 component.
The head available was basically stock.
In terms of actual #'s, I am not making a big deal of the #'s themselves as every bench is different, every operator, weather condition etc. That is why we took 5 configurations with us, used the same head, the same port on the head, same bench, same operator, same weather, etc. This is a true back to back test.
(FYI stock head flowed 188.5cfm on that day, that bench, etc. so if you really want #'s, you can do the math.)
Let me also mention, I think the V2 port job was GREAT. I could only admire it. Obviously we have changed a few other things in design, but I don't know how you could improve on the V2 porting.
I should also mention, although we did port the intake, and highly suggest anybody port them, it isn't something I would prefer to do. I would rather each person port their intake or have someone else do the porting. My porting was ok, but did leave room for further improvement.
Stock Intake: Just that, nothing done to it.
Ported Stock: I took 1 of the ports, and did the same porting as I did to the new intake.
86/87: Stock nothing done.
V2: We borrowed a V2 from a fellow member and tested it, as is.
JSM Intake: Mods as we have mentioned, pictures, etc.
All testing was done with the plenum installed but NO TB. As the V2 plenum was intergal, we wanted to compare exactly, and as close to stock configuration as possible.
Here are the #'s showing how efficient the intake was to the head.
Stock Intake 90%
Ported Stock Intake 97%
86/87 94%
V2 100%
JS Manufacturing 100%
If i did it again, I would try to round up a higher flowing head. But even with these #'s, you can tell the intake is no longer the weak point in the system.
We felt it would not be a real test to just flow an intake alone without using a head. It is the Sytem we are concerned about and not just 1 component.
The head available was basically stock.
In terms of actual #'s, I am not making a big deal of the #'s themselves as every bench is different, every operator, weather condition etc. That is why we took 5 configurations with us, used the same head, the same port on the head, same bench, same operator, same weather, etc. This is a true back to back test.
(FYI stock head flowed 188.5cfm on that day, that bench, etc. so if you really want #'s, you can do the math.)
Let me also mention, I think the V2 port job was GREAT. I could only admire it. Obviously we have changed a few other things in design, but I don't know how you could improve on the V2 porting.
I should also mention, although we did port the intake, and highly suggest anybody port them, it isn't something I would prefer to do. I would rather each person port their intake or have someone else do the porting. My porting was ok, but did leave room for further improvement.
Stock Intake: Just that, nothing done to it.
Ported Stock: I took 1 of the ports, and did the same porting as I did to the new intake.
86/87: Stock nothing done.
V2: We borrowed a V2 from a fellow member and tested it, as is.
JSM Intake: Mods as we have mentioned, pictures, etc.
All testing was done with the plenum installed but NO TB. As the V2 plenum was intergal, we wanted to compare exactly, and as close to stock configuration as possible.
Here are the #'s showing how efficient the intake was to the head.
Stock Intake 90%
Ported Stock Intake 97%
86/87 94%
V2 100%
JS Manufacturing 100%
If i did it again, I would try to round up a higher flowing head. But even with these #'s, you can tell the intake is no longer the weak point in the system.
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
Let me make something about intake manifolds clear.
A good intake does not "increase" flow, its just restricts it less than a bad intake. Therefore, you cannot achieve more than 100% efficiency for a given intake/head combination. Now, an intake may flow more if a better head is used, without changing the intake itself. That being said, it is easy to see that the V2 and JSM intake are quantum leaps above the stock unit...not to mention the interecooler as an added bonus.
As a side bar, it is interesting to see how well matched the stock intakes were in regards to the stock heads. Looks like Buick had a pretty good handle on that combo!
A good intake does not "increase" flow, its just restricts it less than a bad intake. Therefore, you cannot achieve more than 100% efficiency for a given intake/head combination. Now, an intake may flow more if a better head is used, without changing the intake itself. That being said, it is easy to see that the V2 and JSM intake are quantum leaps above the stock unit...not to mention the interecooler as an added bonus.
As a side bar, it is interesting to see how well matched the stock intakes were in regards to the stock heads. Looks like Buick had a pretty good handle on that combo!
fireberd350
Member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2002
A little off topic but I am confused.
A ported intake can flow 97% of what the stock heads can flow(based on your tests) so from that it would be consievable to say that porting your heads is basically a waste of time, no?
A ported intake can flow 97% of what the stock heads can flow(based on your tests) so from that it would be consievable to say that porting your heads is basically a waste of time, no?
Looking at the base #'s you can draw that conclusion. Flow is a very confusing and comlicated thing, I know only a small portion.
A ported head is obviously going to help even with stock intake. If we assume it stay with same efficiency flow would go up changing head, just not as much as a ported or modified style intake.
I have a theory though, and idea on the weakness of the flow bench.
during testing only 1 port was flown.
with stock intake as we know the inlet is small, along with runner inside. My theory is for 1 port it will flow decent. But in actual running with all 6, the inlet and runner inside intake will become bottleneck quickly. Again my theory on it.
Very hard to truly simulate actual motor conditions.
A ported head is obviously going to help even with stock intake. If we assume it stay with same efficiency flow would go up changing head, just not as much as a ported or modified style intake.
I have a theory though, and idea on the weakness of the flow bench.
during testing only 1 port was flown.
with stock intake as we know the inlet is small, along with runner inside. My theory is for 1 port it will flow decent. But in actual running with all 6, the inlet and runner inside intake will become bottleneck quickly. Again my theory on it.
Very hard to truly simulate actual motor conditions.
shaun mccall
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
flow #,s
Seeing that the numbers are better than stock, stockported, and 86,87 does that mean the ad on of this intake with a intercooler would make a hot air faster than a 8687 with just mystock block?
Seeing that the numbers are better than stock, stockported, and 86,87 does that mean the ad on of this intake with a intercooler would make a hot air faster than a 8687 with just mystock block?
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
There are many other differences that must be explored when comparing the hotair engine to the 86-87 setup. Turbo size, exhaust efficiency, engine management, and the like. What we are showing here is that with the flow numbers we obtained, our intake flows better than a stock 86-87. All else being 100% equal it is possible that you could be faster than an 86-87, but unfortunately all else is not equal!
What we have attempted to do here is eliminate the largest limiting factor we could find, the lack of intercooler. We just thought it would be nice to also add a little extra something to the intake while we were at it.
In essence, it is a more economical/practical option when compared to an 86-87 conversion. That was our real goal. But being performance enthusiasts we just couldn't help but create a little more HP while we were in there.
Re: flow #,s
I would say yes. My car stock with an intercooler and K&N went 13.91@101mph with near stock boost of 13-14psi. Add a ported intake to the mix and I'm sure it would be faster.
Originally posted by shaun mccall
Seeing that the numbers are better than stock, stockported, and 86,87 does that mean the ad on of this intake with a intercooler would make a hot air faster than a 8687 with just mystock block?
I would say yes. My car stock with an intercooler and K&N went 13.91@101mph with near stock boost of 13-14psi. Add a ported intake to the mix and I'm sure it would be faster.
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
I don't want to make any statements/claims of what the kit will and will not do for anyone, too many variables. I think the car will run really strong, but I know it will need tuning to make it all fall together...I think it is definitely possible to run mid-low 13's with minor improvements. But I am not promising anything....we will get a good baseline with the WH1 dyno runs soon to follow.
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
Just a quick update, we are trying to get in to the Dyno on Saturday to run baselines on the stock setup, and will hopefully make the swap to the new intake as a hotair setup as soon as the baseline numbers are in.
Well, you leave for a while and look what happens! So will you guys be needing customer intakes to do the work? I've got one sitting here with some port "massaging" that has your name on it if so. I want this and will put my money where my mouth is. What's the damage on one of these? Please keep us updated on the development, it's about time someone made a system which can be put together with whichever parts I can afford.
Progress still being made, although slower than hoped due to many other projects taking up my time.
today we did get the buick on the dyno for some baseline #'s.
Keep in mind car is bone stock minus adjustable regulator.
first 2 runs were pig rich, guess 8:1 AFR. For the 3rd we lowered fuel pressure some, and picked up an easy 12 hp and was still rich for the most part. Boost max of 12psi.
HP at rear wheels peaked at 151 HP. Not great, but is stock.
Plan now is to install new intake, same turbo, same everything so test is back to back and do another dyno test.
I will be adding alky also, and we plan to upgrade ecm also in near future, along with some good tuning, more boost but not until the test is done.
I will have some dyno sheets in my WH1 gallery this weekend.
www.jsmanufacturing.com
Probably 2 more weeks or so before we get install. I have to leave on business for a week to Arizona. GRR...
today we did get the buick on the dyno for some baseline #'s.
Keep in mind car is bone stock minus adjustable regulator.
first 2 runs were pig rich, guess 8:1 AFR. For the 3rd we lowered fuel pressure some, and picked up an easy 12 hp and was still rich for the most part. Boost max of 12psi.
HP at rear wheels peaked at 151 HP. Not great, but is stock.
Plan now is to install new intake, same turbo, same everything so test is back to back and do another dyno test.
I will be adding alky also, and we plan to upgrade ecm also in near future, along with some good tuning, more boost but not until the test is done.
I will have some dyno sheets in my WH1 gallery this weekend.
www.jsmanufacturing.com
Probably 2 more weeks or so before we get install. I have to leave on business for a week to Arizona. GRR...
When you change intakes, will you use a u-bend setup like Bruce Plecan did on his 87 setup. This was posted earlier this year. Bruce aka MAD SCIENTIST, decided to take his intercooler out of his 87 and run HOT AIR... He used a u-bend and also used alky. Had so interesting findings. Cant wait till you guys get the setup complete and on a dyno. As Engineer by trade, I came up with some of the same setup, but time constraints stopped me (family, job, children, wife and again, wife...) I toyed with the idea of placing a small intercooler, aka Lightning in the top of the intake. I found a Mustang Heater core that fit in the intake and just did not get a change to full mock it up. Keep up the good work....
I toyed with the idea of placing a small intercooler, aka Lightning in the top of the intake. I found a Mustang Heater core that fit in the intake and just did not get a change to full mock it up. Keep up the good work....For the next version it will be a simple U pipe similar to bruce's with alky although we will test with no alky, and no tuning changes for first 2 dyno runs.
Then we will add alky and tuning and see what it does. I have high expectations myself.
After that we will develop the intercooler piping also to go that route.
Then we will add alky and tuning and see what it does. I have high expectations myself.
After that we will develop the intercooler piping also to go that route.
national84
Heavy breather
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
We have a few of the stock intakes and wanted to do them on an exchange basis to keep the turn around time to a minimum. Also we are tying to keep from getting overwhelmed with orders all at once..I think this was a contributing factor to some of Jay's problems.
However, if you have an intake that you have"massaged" and want us to use it, we will certainly be able to make that happen for you. There will be a delay, for obviuos reasons.
At present we are still trying to find ways to bring the cost close inline with Jays original V2 kit cost. His price was like $1500 for a kit. And his V3 intake was a $450 upgrade, so we are looking to be in that range. Currently we are closer to $650. We are still sourcing out some work, and cannot give a solid price as yet. At present, the intakes are costing a bit more to produce than we would like, so we are looking into some alternate production methods for our doghouse flanges, etc. And, we are still up in the air as to whether or not we will just modify stock upper plenums, or make our own from sheetmetal. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
The big hold up is that to eliminate some of the design issues that were inherent in the Turbomotion design, we are forced to move toward more complex well engineered pieces. Jays kit was a really good one, but we have found several issues that need addressed. I am sure that, had Jay had the chance to spend more time building these kits there would have been upgrades.....can anyone say V4,5,6,7, and on and on.
PS, sorry for the book
