Is alky a necessity?

[Saladin45]

I had this question going around in my head lately.

Everybody always talks about alcohol injection. And I'm sure that its great for the 50HP that it gives you since you're able to do so much more with it. But there's got to be a way to get a good high 12 second car without alcohol injection. Not everybody wants to have a strictly race car. Some might want to take it out without running alcohol and spending ridiculous amounts of cash on alcohol everytime they drive.

Intercooler's can help pick up the slack that not having alcohol injection leaves, right?

-Saladin

p.s. Basically my question is, can you get fast without alcohol injection in your car?

 

[chadly]

Sure you can go fast without alcohol injection but it’s a lot cheaper and easier to do it with alcohol. Sure an I/C will pick up some of the slack but it costs more and gains way less. Remember the alcohol is not being used unless you got your foot in it. You can adjust when you want you alcohol to start to spray. 6psi seems to be fairly common. So you could drive the next 100,000 miles without using a drop of alcohol if you keep the boost under 6psi or what ever you set it for. I too did not want alcohol on my car and I was set to upgrade all that I could and leave the alky for last. Money became an issue so recently I put the alcohol on. As almost all will say “I wished I would have never waited this long”. Good luck with your decisions.

 

[cool 84]

I wouldn't say the gains are less for an intercooler vs alky. I'm pretty sure the intercooler will give you more since I've done both. The nice thing about the IC is you never have to fill up, it's always there. You can make your own intercooler kit for about the same price as the Razor kit.

The times in my sig were with a very, very mild tune with low boost and big problems. That was before the 4.1 and nice heads.

Alky is a great thing and I think it makes the car more streetable since you get near race gas performance on pump gas. You shouldn't have to refill that often. Once you get used to it, it's like race gas, you don't see how you ever made it without it.

 

[esinger]

Here are my thoughts and maybe it helps answer your question.

Cheapest (Up Front Costs)
Race Gas
Alcohol injection
Changing a Hot Air to Intercooled

Cheapest (Continued Operation Costs)
Changing a Hot Air to Intercooled
Alcohol injection
Race Gas

Up front cost, the cheapest is to buy race gas. Basically put it in the tank, turn up the boost and timing and go, go, go. The good side is it’s cheaper than any of the other alternatives for the very infrequent drag racer (or dedicated drag car), but not too good for the random street racer.

Next is alcohol injection, up front cost is in the mid $500 neighborhood and I current use $20 worth of methanol a year. Although the upfront is much more than race gas, but it’ll play for itself over race gas the more and more you race.

Finally there’s the cost of converting over a hotair car to an intercooled setup. I don’t have an accurate cost on this, but I imagine it’s over $2000 or more. Up front cost is way higher than race gas and still is a good chunk of change above alky, but the more and more you race the more it pays for itself and it’s basically zero for on going cost.

Of course you can do any combination of the above as well.

 

[cool 84]

Here are my thoughts and maybe it helps answer your question.

Cheapest (Up Front Costs)
Race Gas
Alcohol injection
Changing a Hot Air to Intercooled

Cheapest (Continued Operation Costs)
Changing a Hot Air to Intercooled
Alcohol injection
Race Gas

Up front cost, the cheapest is to buy race gas. Basically put it in the tank, turn up the boost and timing and go, go, go. The good side is it’s cheaper than any of the other alternatives for the very infrequent drag racer (or dedicated drag car), but not too good for the random street racer.

Next is alcohol injection, up front cost is in the mid $500 neighborhood and I current use $20 worth of methanol a year. Although the upfront is much more than race gas, but it’ll play for itself over race gas the more and more you race.

Finally there’s the cost of converting over a hotair car to an intercooled setup. I don’t have an accurate cost on this, but I imagine it’s over $2000 or more. Up front cost is way higher than race gas and still is a good chunk of change above alky, but the more and more you race the more it pays for itself and it’s basically zero for on going cost.

Of course you can do any combination of the above as well.

I agree. Just to add a little, the conversion costs about $1,650. I paid $1,400 since I didn't need a turbo or intercooler. You can add an intercooler to the hotair for $500 if you don't mind taking to time to make it work (not a bolt on kit). Mine is in the process of a converison right now but I have enough hotair parts to build another. I plan to have a strictly hotair and an 86-87 setup.

I'm currently running some nice ported irons, ported intake, 4.1L, 6765DBB turbo, big front mount, etc. I went big with everything so I can back off the tune and run it easy on pump gas and a little alky and still be in the 11s. If it were a track only car I would just run race gas. I figure this will save me an easy $40 every weekend and hopefully a little reliability since I won't be tuned to the ragged edge of detonation. My intercooled hotair setup was already at the limit of traction on drag radials and speeds of 50mph. I'm just trying to make the same power with the new setup at a much lower boost level.

 

[Saladin45]

So for 1,650 it is possible to get an 86/87 conversion?

Anybody got a list of what it is that helps make this conversion possible?

That sounds reasonable enough.

The question is basically this: To do such a job you have to basically rip down everything on top of the motor, yes?

 

[cool 84]

So for 1,650 it is possible to get an 86/87 conversion?

Anybody got a list of what it is that helps make this conversion possible?

That sounds reasonable enough.

The question is basically this: To do such a job you have to basically rip down everything on top of the motor, yes?

Everything from the heads up (not including the heads) plus ECM, wire harness, powersteering pump, all accessory brackets, passenger side header, throttle cable, etc. "Intercooled 88s" usually has the complete setup for sale from a parted out car.

 

[turbo6x2]

p.s. Basically my question is, can you get fast without alcohol injection in your car?[/QUOTE]
Yes, What Eric is pointing out pretty much says it all. I have yet to use alcohol to make or create horse power, yes it's on the car but no gains have every been seen with it on my set up. However I do run 110 racing fuel all season so I'm covered for octane on my set up. It's only 4.99 a gallon here and Premium is 4.39 or higher.

 

[cool 84]

p.s. Basically my question is, can you get fast without alcohol injection in your car?

Yes, What Eric is pointing out pretty much says it all. I have yet to use alcohol to make or create horse power, yes it's on the car but no gains have every been seen with it on my set up. However I do run 110 racing fuel all season so I'm covered for octane on my set up. It's only 4.99 a gallon here and Premium is 4.39 or higher. [/QUOTE]

So alky won't give gains above and beyond race gas but it will give nice gains over pump gas...

 

[boostmaster]

I had this question going around in my head lately.

Everybody always talks about alcohol injection. And I'm sure that its great for the 50HP that it gives you since you're able to do so much more with it. But there's got to be a way to get a good high 12 second car without alcohol injection. Not everybody wants to have a strictly race car. Some might want to take it out without running alcohol and spending ridiculous amounts of cash on alcohol everytime they drive.

Intercooler's can help pick up the slack that not having alcohol injection leaves, right?

-Saladin

p.s. Basically my question is, can you get fast without alcohol injection in your car?

The answer to yout question in plain matter of fact terms is yes. This a fact that I have confirmed for myself. Last year I went to the track and most times the moment I get there I pump out the 93 and put in some race fuel. but this one particular day I decided to run the car fresh off the trailer just like I run it on the street since I had tuned the night before and it was pulling pretty good. So fresh off the trailer 10 gallons of 93 no alky 16-18psi (12.84@104.xx mph). That was my only pump gas pass but I was really suprised. But like Cool84 I have big everything for a hot air. Big cam, big turbo, big heads that makes it easier to run fast @ low boost.

The times in my sig were with a very, very mild tune with low boost and big problems. That was before the 4.1 and nice heads.

There you go again. (lol)

 

[cool 84]

The answer to yout question in plain matter of fact terms is yes. This a fact that I have confirmed for myself. Last year I went to the track and most times the moment I get there I pump out the 93 and put in some race fuel. but this one particular day I decided to run the car fresh off the trailer just like I run it on the street since I had tuned the night before and it was pulling pretty good. So fresh off the trailer 10 gallons of 93 no alky 16-18psi (12.84@104.xx mph). That was my only pump gas pass but I was really suprised. But like Cool84 I have big everything for a hot air. Big cam, big turbo, big heads that makes it easier to run fast @ low boost.

The times in my sig were with a very, very mild tune with low boost and big problems. That was before the 4.1 and nice heads.

There you go again. (lol)

Notice it was "big problems" not "plugged cat" lol.

 

[turbo6x2]

Yes, What Eric is pointing out pretty much says it all. I have yet to use alcohol to make or create horse power, yes it's on the car but no gains have every been seen with it on my set up. However I do run 110 racing fuel all season so I'm covered for octane on my set up. It's only 4.99 a gallon here and Premium is 4.39 or higher.

So alky won't give gains above and beyond race gas but it will give nice gains over pump gas...[/QUOTE]From my experience and data that would be correct. We have always ran 110 straight thus needing a good wide band to support the lead. I have not seen any data to show any gain from the alcohol on my car when turned on. Maybe on a very hot day but my intake temp stays the same no matter the outside air temp. I know that others who ran alcohol also ran a mix of 93 octane with 110 or less and saw gains. Alcohol is great for running 93 octane and wanting to keep away from detonation. So there are pros and cons, with fuel costs going through the roof, including race fuel, a razor kit could be the difference of going out every weekend to just when you can afford it. :frown:

Just note I am looking at project x and if this plays out I might have something new to report, but until then, I have the same set up a lot of you are working on even though I tend to keep some information to myself until we see the data. I'd rather have valid information to share then assumptions. It will take some testing to verify then I'll share what we found.

 

[Jerryl]

..... Everybody always talks about alcohol injection. And I'm sure that its great for the 50HP that it gives you since you're able to do so much more with it. But there's got to be a way to get a good high 12 second car without alcohol injection. Not everybody wants to have a strictly race car.

If you DO NOT want a strictly race car, the short answer is;
1 - Yes, you need the Alky kit if you want 12's without an IC on 93 and a 231CI motor.
2 - If you run race gas, the kit is not needed.

(now watch someone come in and say I am FOS and you can do it on 93 alone)

 

[cool 84]

If you DO NOT want a strictly race car, the short answer is;
1 - Yes, you need the Alky kit if you want 12's without an IC on 93 and a 231CI motor.
2 - If you run race gas, the kit is not needed.

(now watch someone come in and say I am FOS and you can do it on 93 alone)

Cam, heads, intake, and you're there but you just spent $2,000.

 

[Saladin45]

But if I'm spending $2000, then its just more convienient to go the 1987 setup swap then at that point.

Thanks a ton for the input guys. I appreciate it.

-Saladin

 

[cool 84]

But if I'm spending $2000, then its just more convienient to go the 1987 setup swap then at that point.

Thanks a ton for the input guys. I appreciate it.

-Saladin

I was just being a PITA to Jerry lol. Even with the 87 setup you will be addicted to the alky, trust me.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Well sometimes even after a swap the spending continues ...... You got to face it... these cars and there response to add on parts is a disease...

Chuck

 

[mjdwyer23]

The 87 setup alone might cost 2k, but odds and ends will "most likely" nickel and dime you to death.

 

[cool 84]

Very true. I just spent $1,450 for the conversion parts plus:

$1,400 for the 6776 DBB turbo,
$100 to get the TB ported
$280 for a 3" DP
$1,000 for the heads (used)
$1,000 for the headers
$220 for the 60lb injectors (used)
$200 for the valvecovers
$300 for the double pumper
$1,500 for a trans and convertor that will take the power (used)
$1,000 on dinners and presents to keep the girlfriend from breaking up with me for spending so much on a car that won't run in the next year.

This is on top of the performance parts I have for the hotair that I can still use like fuel pressure regulator, intercooler, built 4.1L. Plus cleanup on the used parts and some of the new parts like porting the intake, wastegate hole, and about a thousand other little things I did to get the hotair to run good that I have to do all over again. I spent all weekend cleaning and preping parts and I'm not close to 1/4 of the way done. I'm putting an end to my spending for the year.

 

[Saladin45]

Sheesh, so then what's good to get then? It just seems like you get blocked off by some huge wall everywhere you turn with these cars.

But I'm a resilient guy. I'm sure in a couple days I'll have another thread asking about HP.