Hot Air Intakes

[Turtle TR]

wow...so that's what the other machinist do no wonder they never made me do the heavy duty stuf

that's a whole lot of ideas for me to put into my intake. and will consider them and talk it over with the master machinist I used to work for, and how i'll tackle them. thanks...i'm sure it'll look like a pancake mix gone bad on the fryer. I'm on a f*cked up college budget so...yah, life sucks for the time being. having a master machinist as a friend is a great thing too...though I'm the dumbest guy in there (coming from an electrical engineer major), and finding time to fit me in to use their equipment is cool, but i do consider the time ther other guys need...they get 1st priority. man...you take 30 hours on the job...LOL, I'll get you you by next Dec and let you find out how it's going .

BTW, thanks for cooling our inquiring minds on how the job was done. I know that food must be brought to the table, I'm working on it. Hell...you should see how much I charge for drafting jobs, $60/hour at $150-$175 per finished plot. that crap get into my studies, my time at the machine shop, my training, and school...gotta make a living. maybe after all this havoc with school and work is over, and graduated...I'll look you up.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

WELL SAID!

Alan, A GREAT explanation for those that think "lunch is free"!!
And I bet Bill Gates, even being the "evil bastard" he's accused of being, went thru the same types of trial and error before he came with his stuff!!!

Ever wonder why the government is so screwed up and working in the red?? Must have too many folks there that think like some that have commented about your "free overhead" in this thread.

Back under the injector bench!!!

 

[FJM568]

Helluva description there, Alan...I almost thought I was back at work in the shop again...

Alan did simplify some of the description on what he does...And where he did simplify, there are maybe 5 shops in the whole country that have a setup to do what he's doing...

For all those who think it's easy to be a machinist, go take a night class or something at a local Vo-Tech school...You will soon find out what is involved in setting up machines and parts just to take a cut on them...

Alan's description also is only correct if everything goes right the first time...If something unexpected comes up, the part may end up being a large doorstop or if it can be fixed, then it could be used again...Then figure in all the time involved in fixing it and then checking it again to be sure nothing else has changed...

Being a machinist in not just clamping a part to the table and hacking away on it...Sometimes the setup alone takes a couple hours, depending on what you're trying to do...It may only take 10 mins to machine it, but the setup time AIN'T free...

Then factor in how much making the fixturing costs to set the part up in the machine so that you have some reasonable repeatability when setting up the part numerous times, and the costs just add up...

I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain to people that came into the shop where I worked that it would cost more to repair the broken part that they brought in than it would cost for them to buy it new...People think that "hey set this up, cut this off, weld this on, and machine it like new, and I'll give you $20 bucks...It costs $100 new"...Even at $50/hr shop rates, it would be at least 2 hrs to do, and that's not including material...Cheaper just to buy it new...

I've tried to explain to people here many times, especially, with the motor setup that I've got, that it ain't cheap or easy to do...I'm lucky enough that I had access to a multi-million dollar machine shop to modify or fabricate my parts and that just cost me time out of my life...I could use the facilities if the particular machines weren't in use at the time...No money out of my pocket...But you just can't take a part to a machine shop and say, "Here, machine this" and expect the machinist to know all the dimensions and clearances you need built in to the part without him taking measurements and actually seeing the complete job you are trying to do...I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get things to fit on my setup, before I tried to machine anything...I can also tell you, not everything worked on the first try...There was a lot of trial and error involved...

Just by talking to Alan, I have a really good idea what he's going through to try to accomplish what he's doing...I'm sure that he'll do a fantastic job on it...But he's right, there are maybe a handful of people that can really use the intake to it's ultimate potential, but for most hotair owners on a really tight budget, this really isn't the intake for ya...

Geez, I don't know how many times I've got to repeat myself during one of my rants...Go back and check out all my other rant posts to read anything I may have left out here...LOL

 

[turbo6x2]

Some of us are quite serious about our cars and the motor we have invested in. I just know that disappointment is all I can say describes the results of the v-3 issues. I think it's great someone takes the time to accomplish more. (3 " down pipes for our cars is an example) But I would rather someone take the time prove it and show it works, rather then waste money on something that made joe blow's car go fast but no one else in the world can use it. I have one of the gasket ported intakes, made by a cnc operator (with over 30 years experience) and have been very happy with my investment. The whole reason this was done in the first place was due to information obtained by Lee that all he ever ran was a gasket ported intake, thus my reasoning with going with this. No one else out there is even bothering, so it's not like our options are over flowing. I just know, if you don't plan on going in the 11's or spending the money this isn't for you.

 

[cwmccray]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG . I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING 6 PACKTOGO' S POST ON HIS INTAKE AND AFTER FJM568 MODED HIS, I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION, LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERTS. LISTEN UP HOT AIR BROTHERN, ALAN HAS STEPPED UP TO PLATE AND COME UP WITH A REAL SOLUTION. I CANNOT SEE THE PROBLEM WITH HIS PRICE. NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE PRODUCING HOT AIR PRODUCTS. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A DYNOED SETUP (ALAN'S HEAD/INTAKE) VERSUS STOCK SETUP. NO FLAME INTENTED, IF LEE THOMPSON WAS SELLING THE INTAKE, WOULD ANYONE COMPLAIN? WE CAN EITHER SUPPORT HIM OR GET OFF THE PORCH.... AS HOT AIR'S GET RARE, PERFORMANCE PARTS GET RARER. THIS MEANS SAVE A LITTLE MORE MONEY TO PURCHASE..... IF THE DYNO AND PERFORMANCE EQUAL BIG NUMBERS, THESE POST WILL NOT EVEN MATTER. PERSONALLY, I WOULD NOT TRY GN1'S ON A HOT AIR...

JUST MY .02

CHUCK MCCRAY
85 TTYPE

 

[JayLashua]

Well $60 hours labor is enough to charge, ive just been trying to say, that SHOULD (and better) be able to cover over head + equip maintenance costs etc as well as put money in his pocket... im sure he did mention thinking it was necessary to charge more than plain $60/hour labor.. when labor alone would be $2400 if he figured 40 hours.. hotair owners ARE cheap.. im one of them, and i'd need two jobs to afford some of the mods these KIDS are putting on their cars (how do they get this enormous cash flow?!) would anybody pay 2400 for a intake that will only take a second off your time? you'll ofcourse need to port and polish your heads to match the intakes increased flow, and with a bigger turbo, say a ta-33 .. why pay that much when you could convert the damn motor to a '86/'87 setup and run just as fast?

it has to be fair, and it also has to be competitive.. youd have to figure.. "hot air intake.. or go intercooled.. " it should be worth more in the bank and in HP.. otherwise people are just going to go "screw it, i'll convert" ..am i right?

I like the idea of staying stock myself, so if finance wasn't a issue, i might pay around $2000 for a VERY WELL DONE intake that not only flows high #'s, but PROPERLY distributes air, and allows for correct alcohol atomization because i would go alky before intercooling.. that's just my preference.

btw.. off topic, but hwo would it work if you hackjobbed a humidifier machine in the engine bay, witha duct, going into the MAF pipe?

 

[turbowrenchhead]

Just my O2. I cut open a stock intake. I cut out the runners ported and polished the runners and keep everything even. I had it welded up a couple times in the process. When I got it on the car the engine ran excellent. It idled better then ever. The plugs all looked great after a 1000 miles on it.
I sold it and went to the V2 and have had no complaints.

 

[6PacktoGo]

No where did I EVER say I was even considering charging $2400 for an intake. Nor did I ever say I was charging $60+ per hour labor PLUS materials. I said standard shop labor rates were $60 per hour, give or take $5 per hour. I also said I could not afford to make these things for a straight $20 per hour for 30 hours or so ($600 for those of you who seem to be math disadvantaged). I'm sure SOME people have not been reading closely enough, or they have been making assumptions.

I said that the people who originally approached me were pitching a fit because I could not and would not do it for $400 or $500. I've told at least a half dozen people who asked that I thought I MIGHT be able to do them on a "when I have time" basis for $800-$900, maybe a little more.

I've never asked ANYONE for a DIME. I've never tried to SELL anyone an intake. In fact, I told EVERYONE who asked that I would not even accept a deposit from ANYONE until I had intakes ready to go out the door, tested and finished, and even then I would take orders for ONLY what I had ready to go, and that I would expect payment for the intake, plus a core exchange, and I would ship the intake the day I received it. If I didn't have a manifold ready, I would not accpet an order, a core, or payment of any sort.

I promised three people I'd build them one if it worked, one as a favor, and two who have expressed a willingness to pay for them.

I had already decided before this all started to build a dyno mule to test these things, because I simply will not send one out if I don't know it will work. I'm still going to do it.

I'm quite happy that some have had success with their attempts or with something they have purchased. I like to see effort and expense rewared with success.

I feel I've said all I need to say on the subject, and for me, this matter is closed.

 

[Turtle TR]

Not to take sides with anyone...I'm more of a I'd like to hear both sides. For the most part...I'm to lazy to skim through the thread, but...I dont think I seen Alan proposing he'll mass produce the intakes. He abviously stated that there were flaws in design and he derived up a new scheme to revamp the existing intake. I for one, was very curious as too what was done...then Alan would generalize his findings and blew me away. now, I am blessed with having a master machinist as a friend, but even he says...send it to alan. I printed out the reply one the procedures done and said "yah...I can do it, we have the facilities and equipment...but very time consuming, especially when we have to service everyone else. we arent fabricators...we are machinists" I understand the likeness of the sides...but things differ between them as well. then he read the rest of the posts...he said..."no one can truely understand what a machinist has to go through into when it comes to research and developement. it takes time and money. it's gonna take a whole lot of each of them before anyone can mass produce them." in most cases, my friend sided Alan. I came to understand, like any business...you have to create capitol to start something..money & time are greatly involved before making any residual. Im sure anyone with this find would like to proffit off an idea like this. Honestly I would. I think that because of the high price "which i pretty much dont mind" is worth it. I would rather spend the money for the labor and what not vs the time, money spent to make it happen. come one now...$2400 vs sub $1000...I'll likely pay $1000. **when I'm graduated and a licensed elec engineer ** think of it this way...He's saving you $1400 I am not siding anyone on this...I am siding the direct idea. "what would your rather pay for? quantity or quality?" As Americans..I know you all will choose quality over all, with quality...there is a price. More than likely...Alan his brought the idea on the quality of his work to our attention.

Again...thanks for the ideas. I was pretty much overwhelmed with them.

 

[FJM568]

I think that some are still not understanding just what Alan has done to try to rework the stock intake...

He is correcting the design flaws in the stock intake in a helluva lot more extreme way that Jason Cramer did with his power plate for the 86/7 intakes...It's just that Alan is doing it all inside the 84/5 intake, whereas Race Jace did it with a bolt-on piece...Alan has also designed and set up test equipment to measure the incoming air and then measure the flow variances between the ports...He IS NOT JUST MAXIMIZING INDIVIDUAL PORT FLOW NUMBERS, but is also BALANCING the flow that reaches the ports...This is not cheap and not simple...

When I said earlier that there is probably only a handful of places in the country that can do that, that is even including the aftermarket intake manufacturers(Edelbrock, etc) themselves!!!

Alan, I apologize for stepping in like this...I'm just frustrated that some people can't understand how much time and effort goes into a project like this that you will never recoup, no matter how much you charge for them...It's not as simple as "since I can't possibly recover my costs by charging $2400 for them, I may as well charge $600, because that's what people would pay" line of thinking, like some seem to want to have you do...

Enough said...

And keep up the good work, Alan...Hope to meet up with you in person someday...

Later...

 

[Turtle TR]

I like the idea the he's saving us $1200 of the $2200 (roughly 40 hours x $55/hour using Alan's description not including materials) charging us $1000 if he does go through with "redoing" our intakes in mass amounts. "positive thinking" at it's best. I can see the cost going up a tad more w/materials in mind. anyhoot...we'll just have to see what improvments it does on the track over all. I'm more ansy to hear how it does. If I like what I read/hear...I'm sold and convinced. Alan, you can add one more guy to you list of "you're doing the right thing" list

 

[Buick From Hell]

Where's the damn moderator??!!



2 or 3 of my cents...

Prescription drug manufacturers are allowed so-many years of exclusive rights to sell their drugs, so that they may recoup their research and development costs. Just a part of doing business.

And regardless of whatever someone's "normal" shop rate is, every minute spent producing something that only "breaks even" equals minus one minute of time that could've been spent producing something that earns a profit!

It seems Alan is simply stating facts concerning what he's doing, and that IF anyone's interested in sharing the fruits of his labor, they should be prepared to help cover the costs of planting the fruit trees!

 

[HOTSIX]

Alan - might be time for you to re-evaluate your membership on this board. You might be a member for the wrong reasons.

If you have not picked up on it by now...this board is meant to be a free (ouch - there's that word you hate again!!) exchange between people with similar interests.

It seems most of us really aren't interested in your 'Secret Squirrel' intake. But if you have spent so much time on R&D etc...why not share your advice and results (for the benifit of the board) since you have proven yourself that you will never recoup the costs you have incurred thus far...????

I have been a member for quite some time and others have helped overwelmingly with countless issues i've had with my car during it's restoration.

That's what this site is all about in my opinion.

All the thanks goes out to the members of this board (even vendors) for their help allowing me to successfully complete my project through Q & A type discussion's.

That being said - I appreciate your a business man who has to deal with the in's and out's of running a business. I don't think anyone here needs a lesson on business management or related topics. I also appreciate your frustration in developing and marketing a product that MOST will not be willing to purchase at or near the price offered - or that some want it for free.

You said that yourself.

If that's the case - have you considered it might be a bad business decision for you to develop this product ???

If you are in it for the profit...which I hope you are...then you aren't making any sense by developing this product.

I haven't seen an abundance of NHRA class drag racing motors on this board that would find a NEED for your type intake anyhow. Most of us on here just don't flow the type of CFM to REQUIRE such a specialized item. Most of these are street cars - aren't they ???

It seems to me that the 'ol 'Home Port' job or an intake from "I Win Engineering" seems to be more than sufficient for the majority of motors on this board - NO ?
In closing, I read the detailed description of your intake - and if I fell within the target maket for it and I had the cash (it sounds like it is VERY well built) well...you know the rest. So if you decide to stick around past this post, I just ask you to remember the reasons myself and most others joined this board and visit this forum on a daily basis - to share information.

Thanks.

(Plus, us cheap Hotair guys can use all the help we can get from a guy who knows his way around a machine shop and has been in the business for years....

 

[6PacktoGo]

Originally posted by HOTSIX
Alan - might be time for you to re-evaluate your membership on this board. You might be a member for the wrong reasons.

If you have not picked up on it by now...this board is meant to be a free (ouch - there's that word you hate again!!) exchange between people with similar interests.

It seems most of us really aren't interested in your 'Secret Squirrel' intake. But if you have spent so much time on R&D etc...why not share your advice and results (for the benifit of the board) since you have proven yourself that you will never recoup the costs you have incurred thus far...????

I have been a member for quite some time and others have helped overwelmingly with countless issues i've had with my car during it's restoration.

That's what this site is all about in my opinion.

All the thanks goes out to the members of this board (even vendors) for their help allowing me to successfully complete my project through Q & A type discussion's.

That being said - I appreciate your a business man who has to deal with the in's and out's of running a business. I don't think anyone here needs a lesson on business management or related topics. I also appreciate your frustration in developing and marketing a product that MOST will not be willing to purchase at or near the price offered - or that some want it for free.

You said that yourself.

If that's the case - have you considered it might be a bad business decision for you to develop this product ???

If you are in it for the profit...which I hope you are...then you aren't making any sense by developing this product.

I haven't seen an abundance of NHRA class drag racing motors on this board that would find a NEED for your type intake anyhow. Most of us on here just don't flow the type of CFM to REQUIRE such a specialized item. Most of these are street cars - aren't they ???

It seems to me that the 'ol 'Home Port' job or an intake from "I Win Engineering" seems to be more than sufficient for the majority of motors on this board - NO ?
In closing, I read the detailed description of your intake - and if I fell within the target maket for it and I had the cash (it sounds like it is VERY well built) well...you know the rest. So if you decide to stick around past this post, I just ask you to remember the reasons myself and most others joined this board and visit this forum on a daily basis - to share information.

Thanks.

(Plus, us cheap Hotair guys can use all the help we can get from a guy who knows his way around a machine shop and has been in the business for years....

I became a member because I have a TType, and have had for several years. I've never TRIED to make a profit off of this board, why don't you ask around a little. I never TRIED to sell the intakes either. I was ASKED to do it. As far as free information, you come back and let me know when you reach the point of over 400 hours helping people fix their cars on this board for free. When you've been up till 3 AM helping someone you don't even know fix his car for free, then YOU can give ME lessons on the community. Nothing personal, but I've just about had it with that particular line of B.S. If that's the best you can come up with, don't waste my time and yours. You might try putting one tenth the effort I have into this community and other peoples cars before you advise me on how to contribute around here.

 

[TRiv]

Alan, good luck on the continuing research and fabrication of your manifold design, you're doing what GM should have done in the first place, it is sure obvious that most factory designs are a compromise at best, get everything to fit under the hood, between the fenders, leave room for all the other accessories, and whatever the performance is, is a bonus. Working at NASA in Cleveland for 12 years as a mechanical engineering tech on combustion experiments flown aboard many shuttle missions, I have seen many PhD's in several diciplines argue over there theories on what works etc. and our job is to fabricate and build up their experiments to prove them, so I have a good idea what you're up against. Just for the record everyone , no matter what type make or car model, there are an endless variety of combinations for motors, colors, reasons for building them, and income brackets. Not everyone can be pleased all the time, do'nt forget that not everyone shares our passion for turbo Buicks, heck even within the turbo Buick community others like stock only, some modified, some only 86-87 GN models, some only hot airs, etc. Point, is if Al makes only one intake or several, its up to him if to sell whether friends only or to a few of us if interested, even if the performance to price ratio is'nt worth it to some, it may be to others, so let it rest. I choose to use the Buick turbo engine in my custom because of it's performance potential and rarity out on the street, plus it's a six cylnder! A Chevy small block that is cheaper with endless combinations available just was'nt to me very exotic. So with that , again good luck with the design, and if anyone wants to gripe, write to GM for not designing a better one, and not making a GN, T-type past 87 or even now.