First buick build

[Major Nutz]

Well, The GN1's I had are cracked... So now I'm back in the market for another set of heads. I know it's been discussed several times and i've searched and read endless counts of threads about TA heads, Ported irons and the new GN1's. I still don't really understand why people go with ported irons at $1250 when I can go with the new unported GN1's that outflow them for $1600. The TA's look nice too especially since they seem to be very reliable but I'm attracted to the 14 bolt GN1 heads using the scorpion rockers. I understand they may be a little noisy but its a very similar setup to my 69 camaro and I think they are fine. Is there any reason not to go this route? Remember that I'm looking to make good power but stay close to 20 PSI.

Paul

Sorry to hear about the heads Paul. My heads are coming off due to a blown gasket. I will have them checked for cracks while they are off. The 14 bolt and Scorpion rockers have a sewing machine sound to them if you listen close. Not loud at all. Keep us updated on what you decide on.
Mike

 

[jasjamz]

"Good" power? @ 20psi. Sounds like you are making things a tad harder than they need to be. The ported irons will work for your goals but need a little more boost. 25-30psi. It really is not as bad as it sounds. I was there with a 63 and 25psi and crappy ported heads with flow numbers that were low compared to a set of Champion Irons.

You could get race ported aluminum heads and a custom cam to make more power at lower boost, but will cost you a lot more money. It will also want to be shifted at higher RPMs to make that power. Both will have to make the same horsepower at the flywheel to run the MPH so you really aren't being any easier on the engine.

 

[Paul69camaro]

Jasjamz, I'm trying to do the opposite, I want to make it easier to meet my goals. I respect the guys that push their combo to the limits but I'm not wanting to do that. I rather over build something, then tune it conservatively so it'll last a long time. I know that in the past aluminum heads had a bad reputation for reliability but it seems like all the newer designs have this all sorted out. If the new aluminum heads are reliable now, what are the benefits of the irons? The stock heads I have now could probably use a valve job and with the added cost of porting them, I would be near the price of Champion Irons. An extra 300 bucks gets me the aluminum GN1's. It just seems to me that it's a no brainer but this is why I'm checking with you guys. Am I missing something here?

Paul

P.S. Pronto, I forgot to thank you for telling me to get the heads checked. You saved me a huge headache!

 

[jasjamz]

Sorry Paul, I can't help you there. I would only fell right speaking from experience. I have never used a set of ported or OTB aluminum heads. I have read on here that guys that went from ported irons to OTB GN1s did not see a noticeable gain for what was spent. I do see most go from the bone stock heads straight to the GN1, or a ported iron to a ported aluminum set.

Without touching the rest of the stock shortblock I guess you should contact a well known buick builder or racer and see what head and cam combo he would suggest along with tune suggestions. (Timing,A/F,Boost)
There are a bunch of 11.0-11.5x cars on here and it gets done in many ways. Maybe more will chime in.

 

[Pronto]

What will your rpm range be? To use the GN1s to their potiential flow you will need to wind it up add a big turbo and cam and will have to wind them up too. Totally unnessassary to run mid 11s. I would keep it simple. Since it not real hard to run 11s with a totally stock block why go crazy spending $ on stuff that you will never use to it's potiential? As long as your tune is on, the engine will be fine with a few standard upgrades for strength, even with boost higher than 20.

 

[Paul69camaro]

Pronto,

I'm guessing max RPM's around 5500-5800. Like I said, I have to spend money on heads anyways I figured 300 bucks more wasn't a big deal. Plus I really like the option of running the scorpion rockers for 285 bucks over the terrible stamped steel, metal on metal stock rockers or even over the HD ones TA sells for 140 bucks (For just the shafts!) I know I'm not going to be using the heads to the full potential but the fact that they perform better at lower boost levels is a huge plus in my opinion. I also need to take into consideration that my suspension won't be the best for straight line performance, therefore will need to make up for it a bit on the top end of the track. I already called Tom at Champion today and will be completing the transaction tomorrow unless some one can give me a solid reason not to get these heads besides the additional 300 bucks they cost. Thanks again guys for all the input.

Paul

 

[Pronto]

Well, guess it's time to fire the parts cannon, you've falllen for the bigger/more expensive is better hype. Don't forget, those roller rockers need either aftermarket v/cs or extentions. Hope the cool guy parts meet your goals. Let us know how it all works out.

 

[Paul69camaro]

here is a decent discussion on this topic, looks like I'm not the only one looking for conservative power.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/344633-heads.html

 

[jasjamz]

I'm glad you read that thread and hope it helped you make your decision. The OP asked a simple question. Your original post was much different. Nick and Bison replied to his thread and they are cool guys, but in a way it was not a direct answer to what you are looking for.

Maybe Bison will post the rest of the details of his 233ci alum. head motor vs. the stock 231ci shortblock you intend to put these heads on.(minus the cam) Then you will see why we have not told you "just order the heads, it's a piece of cake". I have been around a while and so has Pronto. We have seen post like yours before, seen the good and the bad and just wanted to help reach your goal.

 

[Paul69camaro]

Jasjamz,

I really do appreciate you and everybody's help and input. It's hard to make a decision given so much conflicting information. When I see things like Major Nutz running 10.70's at 20 psi and Bison making so much power at low boost levels it's pretty convincing to go with the aluminum heads as compared to answers like "irons are all you need". It's been beated into me that Irons can get you in the 9's if you push it hard enough, I get that! I'm looking for a solid reason not to go with aluminum heads given that the new ones are proving to be reliable. I have yet to get an answer to that.

 

[Pronto]

OK, lets go back to the begining. You got a hot air car that you want to convert to intercooled 86-7 engine. You have alot to do to convert it. Next you intend on building a more powerful engine. Aside from needing to upgrade the fuel system (afr, fp, injectors, hotwire) you will need to upgrade the suspension and tires. The stock tranny will probably crap out when you hit the 11s so count on rebuilding that. You will need a higher stall converter for a bigger turbo. Last but not least you will need to some system to tune. For 11s I would use the stock ecm and 6.0 tt chip with wb. Now you see you have to start looking at the whole picture. If you just want to run 11s and not cage your car then building the engine needs to be done right but you won't need 9 second parts. Many stock parts will be just fine at 11 seconds with a good tune!. You can make plenty of power to run mid 11s with a 206 cam, good intercooler, ported iron heads, alky, 2800 stall and a 49 or 44 turbo at about 24lbs or so. That's a classic 11 second combo run by hundreds of board members here. It will be responsive on the street to boot. Bigger cam, bigger turbo, higher flowing heads, higher stalling turbo will certainly do too but if you are not going to sub 10.5s your spending money for no reason. If the "big" parts are not matched right you can might not get the results you think. A quick check of sigs of members will show how some can get it done while other got lots of cool guy stuff and go no faster. Even with the good stuff if the tune sucks then your not going to get it done either. So I guess you need to make real decision on what you want out of your hot air conversion. Decide on your budget and then double it! I don't mean to preach, I just have seen hundreds get so wrapped up in a "build" or "mods" they start throwing stuff and money at the car it ends up slower, or it breaks then they get all pissed at it and sell it.

 

[Little6pack]

I would keep it simple.

Is the what you call a KISS? KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID?

 

[Paul69camaro]

Pronto,
Thanks, that's exactly the type of response I was looking for. I already have a hotwired 340 walbro, TT chip, 2 sets of 50lb injectors, 1 billet regulator, 1 accufab regulator and like I mentioned earlier, a TE44 turbo, PTS 9X11 convertor, the easton front mount, and the 212 cam and Alky. For tires I'm currently running on 275/35/18 Nitto NT05's but I also have a set of weld drag lites with Nitto 275/55/15 DR's. I agree with you on the transmission issue, this is something I was planning on looking into as soon as I got this motor swap finished. I honestly don't have a clue on how to strenghten the 200R4 and need to do a lot of research. The only thing I know is that it was rebuilt recently, has a shift kit and an external cooler. To further help you understand my situation, this was my younger brother's car. He passed away in a car accident back in 03 and at his funeral I promised him to finish the GN. This is what I am currently doing. I'm a small block chevy guy. I've got a banks twin turbo kit just waiting to go in my pro-touring 69 camaro but I'm finishing this buick first. To be honest with you, I'd much rather be driving my camaro than the buick but a promise is a promise and this is why I want to do it once, do it right and be conservative.

Paul

 

[SHADOWII]

Sorry to read.....

of the loss of your brother. Our belated condolences to you and the family.
A "promise is a promise" is understood by all and especially when concerning a family member, will make a great memorial to your brother as well as honoring the promise.

Understand what the guys were trying to do w/the suggestions not to over spend for the goals, is because most of us set out to build an 8 sec. ride on a 12 second budget. The natural end to that road is disappointment and frustration, leading to dashed hopes and "lots of parts for sale!" along w/ a project car! Reallity has a way of getting in the way some times.:biggrin:

As far as the trans. goes, the two I have had experience w/are Lonnie Diers of extreme automatics and Chris Kokkinos of ckperformance. Difficult to get a hold of at times, but upright people in my book. Both have gone the extra mile to "get'er done!" chris also offers a manual on the 200-4R that is excellant in "how-to's" of giving understanding to the operation and building of the trans as well as the tools required, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[Pronto]

Paul, sorry to hear about your brother. It's a nice gesture to fix the the car. Honestly you have the parts. Your trans will need an upgrade. I would try to find someone in your area experienced with TBs to help you with the conversion. Don't want to have that nice new engine not run right b/c of a wiring issue (like grounds!). Make sure you have the engine done by a shop that knows TBs well. The clearences are not what you (as a sbc guy) used to. Take you time and you will be fine. Take some pics as you go along and post them up when your done.

 

[Paul69camaro]

Thanks guys.
I've heard of Ck transmissions before and will be doing some research to figured out what needs to be done. As far as doing the swap, I am a bit concerned but have the help of a good crew, plus I've been doing alot of reading on this forum. I still need to get a heater core for an 87 but I think I have all the parts needed. The wiring does seem pretty scary but we've done fuel injection on 3 sbc's plus a 98 700hp cobra so we may be able to get er done. Pronto, your right, I changed the bearings out last night and was measuring .0015" on the rods and even tighter on the mains. That's simply amazing to me. I'm just hoping I did the rear main seal right.

Paul

 

[Paul69camaro]

Update,

Got the heads on cam in and it looks like the pushrods I was sent are too short. i was told that a 8.85" pushrod is what I needed with the flat tappet cam and aluminum heads but maybe the crower lifters I'm using are different. Any body have any ideas? Just got a pushrod checker today and a solid lifter from a chevy that has a 50 thousanths lower height so I'm gonna try to figure it out tonight and get the correct pushrods ordered so I can continue with the build. Here are some pics so far.

Paul

 

[Paul69camaro]

Almost finished

Got the car running and driving yesterday. I've got to say that this swap wasn't as difficult as people said it would be. Actually pretty straight forward. Still need to finish the alky wiring, install the new Wideband, boost and oil pressure guages,make a new test pipe and fab up the oil cooler setup. It fired first crank and held it at 2100 rpm's for a little over 20 minutes for the cam break in. It was around 85 degrees yesterday and the car never got over 170 degrees. Oil pressure is 25 PSI at temperature, vacuum at idle is 18, overall everything is looking good. I took it out for a spin around the block and at 1/4 throttle not letting it go over 10 PSI is already feels much faster than the old setup. Spool up is ridiculous, I love it! I really wish I did this swap earlier. Now it's just a matter of time before the transmission blows. Anyways just wanted give an update and thank everybody that helped out (especially Jeremy).

Paul

 

[ZNix]

Congrats on getting her running! WE NEED PICTURES! We are picture people here at TB B).

 

[Paul69camaro]

How a Grand National rolls off into the sunset...

Yesterday the 22nd made it exactly 8 years since my brother passed. We were able to get a bunch of his friends and my family together at the lake where we spread his ashes when he passed. It was the unveiling of the Grand National as many of the people who showed up hadn't seen the car in many years. I had to pay tribute and thought I would share a couple of pics with you guys.

Paul