FAST B2B- 3 issues im having.

[EightSecV6]

I understand that the tune may look sort of scetchy at the moment, but the car really seems to like it how it is. I do not doubt that it can get better... dont get me wrong here.

When i got the car, it was pretty bad. Like i said before the car barely idled, was hard to start, and wanted to die when driving and coming to a stop.

I've done pretty well at making the car trackable at this point. I do agree the tune could use some smoothing out.

The reason i posted screens of my maps is because i wanted you guys to take a glance at it and make suggestions to me. I appriciate your comments.

Questions for you:
What AFR do you recommend i run in different areas? (BTW, ive changed the maps since i posted that screen)
How much timing do you think i should run?
Etc Etc

You really need to start with a better "start up" program. It would be difficult for me to just start spouting off numbers, sorry if that sounds vague but I dont know what else to say????????

 

[Reggie West]

Bryan one of the resident tuners in here should be able to give you a good start up program to work with.

Post up the specs on the motor, turbo, and converter and I bet you will get a couple of programs to use.

 

[UR50SLO]

I'm at the begining of my tune stage also. I don't have alky and don't plan on using it. I'm also on 93oct. and running 18deg of timing. I got a used transmission and converter from a stage2 car and I'm having trouble brining up the RPM's under foot brake.

I'd be interested in having tips for spool up as well.

I see your VE numbers where your in the upper RPM's are over 100. What's your injector DC? What size injector are you using? Turbo?

I idle mine in open loop. (as others have stated) I've got a awsome smooth idle. It takes a bit of playing to get that ironed out but it'll be very steady once you get it smoothed in. I run about 25deg of timing at idle with no timing trim (in idle perameters)

I've got a weird hesitation which I "might" have corrected here a few min. ago but won't know till the next drive. It's at about 50% throttle the injector DC drops to 9 and then comes back on. I'm sure I have one of the things off kilter. But that's part of the fun right

I've got all my ESC stuff setup. It should be in working order. Can I tap on the block while running and see if it set's off the knock sensor? On one of my runs yesterday it took .25deg of timing out for a blink. Looked like a pimple on the graph. That's the first time I've had it hit knock. Or maby it was a quirk.?

I'm running a Webber 218cam as well.
~Scott

 

[callmeebryan]

I'm at the begining of my tune stage also. I don't have alky and don't plan on using it. I'm also on 93oct. and running 18deg of timing. I got a used transmission and converter from a stage2 car and I'm having trouble brining up the RPM's under foot brake.

I'd be interested in having tips for spool up as well.

I see your VE numbers where your in the upper RPM's are over 100. What's your injector DC? What size injector are you using? Turbo?

I idle mine in open loop. (as others have stated) I've got a awsome smooth idle. It takes a bit of playing to get that ironed out but it'll be very steady once you get it smoothed in. I run about 25deg of timing at idle with no timing trim (in idle perameters)

I've got a weird hesitation which I "might" have corrected here a few min. ago but won't know till the next drive. It's at about 50% throttle the injector DC drops to 9 and then comes back on. I'm sure I have one of the things off kilter. But that's part of the fun right

I've got all my ESC stuff setup. It should be in working order. Can I tap on the block while running and see if it set's off the knock sensor? On one of my runs yesterday it took .25deg of timing out for a blink. Looked like a pimple on the graph. That's the first time I've had it hit knock. Or maby it was a quirk.?

I'm running a Webber 218cam as well.
~Scott

My injector duty cycle will hit the high 80's (sometimes 90-91%) at around 20lbs. I have my car running at 11.2 AFR right now at WOT. I have 55lb injectors and a pt-63 turbo non bb.

Most likely going to change to larger injectors this winter when i get a new converter, 67 or 70 dbb turbo, and alky.

Im going to mess with the tune some more to see if i can get it to run in open loop at idle.

On a COOL night, im talking in the 60's, i can get away with 19-20* timing with 19-20psi at WOT without any knock on the gauge. When its warmer out, i can run 17psi at 19* timing without knock...maybe it will blink a minute correction but thats about it.

I have over 20 logs already if anyone wants to have a look at them.

 

[UR50SLO]

I'm no Cal Hartline but send me a few of your runs. I'll look them over. Might be somthing I've run into. I like to take my tunes slow... Your going about things about the same way I do. Get your correction factor down and then sneak up on that final number your looking for. When I was tuning this car before it was mine... I had it setup for 11.7afr WOT. It was 1-3% correction though the pass and I had over 20deg of timing in it with no knock.
Where do you have the Air Temp Sensor located? Manifold or out by air filter?
Send the log's over to UR50SLO@aol.com
You'll get there!
Scott~

 

[SloGN]

i have a fast B2B box on my car. first off i really thin it's easier to tune the car in open loop first. My reason for this is if the VE table and A/F tables are diffrent you have a big time in corection issues. that will cause some drivablity problems.

BTW i have my cruising A/F set around 15.5/1 with about 40 degrees of timing with no issues. my idle a/f is around 12.8-13.1 is where the engine runs the smoothest.

here is my run files if you want to take a look guys

 

[UR50SLO]

I've not leaned mine down that far on the Camaro yet. I've done that on my Nissan Maxima (turbo) and it's happy in that area.

If you run your system in open loop you can also watch the o2 correction. It won't effect your AFR's but you can still see how much the ECM "would" be taking out or adding. (That's the way I understand it) That would help guys that are not usto looking at both correction and actual AFR. It's confusing at first. Good tip!

I wonder how much timing we can get away with on light load? I'm right there in the 40deg range too. Seems to help keep the car moving easier and I notice less exhaust sound/load.
~Scott

 

[SloGN]

I've not leaned mine down that far on the Camaro yet. I've done that on my Nissan Maxima (turbo) and it's happy in that area.

If you run your system in open loop you can also watch the o2 correction. It won't effect your AFR's but you can still see how much the ECM "would" be taking out or adding. (That's the way I understand it) That would help guys that are not usto looking at both correction and actual AFR. It's confusing at first. Good tip!

I wonder how much timing we can get away with on light load? I'm right there in the 40deg range too. Seems to help keep the car moving easier and I notice less exhaust sound/load.
~Scott

Scott

from what i have learned that the leaner the a/f is the more timing it needs to get it to light off. A leaner mixture burns slower due to the amount fuel that is in there so you need to light it much sooner in order to get any work out of a small charge.


i think mine is around 41-42 light kpa and around 15.8-16.2 cruising a/f

what i did was i kept pulling the VE #'s down till it got to that a/f then the car would start to fish nubble so i just kept adding the timing to it till it ran smooth. I have no problem pulling hills in high gear with this a/f timing combo.

But one thing to keep in mind tho this is on a buick cylinder head. I'm sure thing will be diffrent on a set of fast burn chevy heads. just gotta drive it down the road and play with it. i have spent more time tunning the part throttle stuff than i have at WOT.


of course having my tiano laptop stand makes things alot easier when driving anf tuning at the same time.

 

[UR50SLO]

Great job on the cruse AFR... I can't run that lean on the Max with out it wanting to lean-miss. The Max's program is no where near the caliber of the FAST.

I put the timing up to 40deg on "spool up" area and it built RPM and boost much much quicker. Not sure how much more it'll take but I'll try it a degree at a time. 4seconds now to get to 14psi on the foot brake. According to the data log from this morning.
I need to work more on part throttle like you have.. >That's the right way to go about it. I did it that way on the wife's Typhoon but I've not done any WOT tuning.
So much tuning so little time!
I like the way you've got the Laptop setup in there! Did you make the brackets or buy a kit?
~Scott

 

[callmeebryan]

Scott

from what i have learned that the leaner the a/f is the more timing it needs to get it to light off. A leaner mixture burns slower due to the amount fuel that is in there so you need to light it much sooner in order to get any work out of a small charge.


i think mine is around 41-42 light kpa and around 15.8-16.2 cruising a/f

what i did was i kept pulling the VE #'s down till it got to that a/f then the car would start to fish nubble so i just kept adding the timing to it till it ran smooth. I have no problem pulling hills in high gear with this a/f timing combo.

But one thing to keep in mind tho this is on a buick cylinder head. I'm sure thing will be diffrent on a set of fast burn chevy heads. just gotta drive it down the road and play with it. i have spent more time tunning the part throttle stuff than i have at WOT.


of course having my tiano laptop stand makes things alot easier when driving anf tuning at the same time.

Geez, thats really lean. The previous car i had i had tuned it for a cruising 15.5-16 afr and it really loved it. Its just that all the buicks i have been around are cruising at 14.7-15.0, so i just felt that was a good norm to tune for.

I will have to play with it a bit this weekend. Im a full time college student right now and have NO time during the week .

 

[callmeebryan]

Great job on the cruse AFR... I can't run that lean on the Max with out it wanting to lean-miss. The Max's program is no where near the caliber of the FAST.

I put the timing up to 40deg on "spool up" area and it built RPM and boost much much quicker. Not sure how much more it'll take but I'll try it a degree at a time. 4seconds now to get to 14psi on the foot brake. According to the data log from this morning.
I need to work more on part throttle like you have.. >That's the right way to go about it. I did it that way on the wife's Typhoon but I've not done any WOT tuning.
So much tuning so little time!
I like the way you've got the Laptop setup in there! Did you make the brackets or buy a kit?
~Scott

40 deg on spool up? Good god. Is anyone else running that much timing during spool up? Whats your AFR during spool up Scott? 40 deg at 14psi and no knock? Thats quite interesting.

On my previous car, i had the car cruising at around 41* timing with a 15.5 afr and tuned for around 24* at 24lbs WOT spraying methanol.

 

[UR50SLO]

It's only in the 40deg range to bring it up. After that it drops in the mid 30's and down in the 20's then at the final number 18deg at full boost

Here are some good links for MPG and the grooves that I did to my heads
GN1 heads.
~Scott~
SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Home
Obsession: Mr. Singh’s Search for the Holy Grail - Popular Science The real popular sci article.
mpg Research :: Index Another good MPG site.

 

[callmeebryan]

It's only in the 40deg range to bring it up. After that it drops in the mid 30's and down in the 20's then at the final number 18deg at full boost

Here are some good links for MPG and the grooves that I did to my heads
GN1 heads.
~Scott~
SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Home
Obsession: Mr. Singh’s Search for the Holy Grail - Popular Science The real popular sci article.
mpg Research :: Index Another good MPG site.

Thats quite and interesting read there.... ive never seen that before.

Do you mind taking a screenshot of your VE and timing maps and pm'ing or emailing them to me to compare?

 

[SloGN]

Scott


I have tried your program and the car don't seem to be happy with it. can i ask why you commanded the closed loop to be in at such a low rpm?. From what i have seen is the A/F ratio table don't have the resoultion that the VE table table so you kinda fighting between the to table because there is such a vast change in kpa in the A/F where the VE table the kpa sepration is much closer.

So what i'm doing is just using the closed loop for WOT from 2800 low to high 3000 till the top of the map.

sorry i sent you the wrong closed loop gct the othernite. i have a datalog from where it was in closed loop and i was on the highway. will try and send it to ya.

also you wanted to me to explain why i have zero's in the bottom of my ve table. we the reason for the very bottom of the table is the car will never operate in that low of a kpa . The the other line from 2400-6000 i did that for deaceleration fuel cut-off. i done this to make the car act like the stock ecm when on the highway when you lift of the throttle and the vac drops hte kpa in that range. makes it real nice when the convertor is locked up. I have set it to zero a tad bit lower than that for around town crusing but the loose convertor don't help and the engine hunts for just a second before returning to a idle.

the car really drives smooth everywhere in the map. i might be wrong in saying this. but i don't think it ever responded no where near as good as it does now when it had the stock ecm in it with a extender chip and 3.5 truck maf.





thanks for taking the to look at my tables i'm no cal-hartline myself but i'm just inching forward with it. i have tune a few cars here in NC and so far everybody has had very good fuel mileage and power. But i'm open to suggestion at anytime because others amy know a easier way than what i'm doing or vice versa.

 

[TurboTerry87gn]

Idle issues

I looked at the screen shot you had posted. Is the timing steady at idle it looks like at 400 rpm is considerable lower than at the next cell, the timing might be causing the motor to hunt. Once you stabalize the timing set the a/f for 13.1 and tune your PID loop gain for the IAC. RUN OPEN LOOP at idle. Then to smooth the idle more from the bigger cam use the idle timing trim.

That is what works for me. Hope it helps. If I remember right I run about 20 degrees at idle, and in the first row of cells closest to zero rpm I bump the timing up so if the car tries to die or stumble the timing advance will help pull the rpm back up.

Smooth thoes maps...all the way to the ends.

 

[callmeebryan]

Ok guys, i got my car to idle in closed loop. Its idling pretty good right around 13.7-14AFR. The issue im having now is that the car hunts real bad when i put it in reverse or drive in idle. I've tried adding timing trim but that didnt seem to help at all. I have it running at 25* at idle.

Also, i took your guys' advice about cruising timing and AFR. Car LOVES a 15.5 AFR at 40* timing whiling cruising! Its very smooth and the exhaust tone complements how much the motor loves it.

 

[SloGN]

Ok guys, i got my car to idle in closed loop. Its idling pretty good right around 13.7-14AFR. The issue im having now is that the car hunts real bad when i put it in reverse or drive in idle. I've tried adding timing trim but that didnt seem to help at all. I have it running at 25* at idle.

Also, i took your guys' advice about cruising timing and AFR. Car LOVES a 15.5 AFR at 40* timing whiling cruising! Its very smooth and the exhaust tone complements how much the motor loves it.

the idle on these motors suck. what i had to do is have my motor idle in open loop.

set you closed loop parameters @ 1000 rpm on the low and 1200 rpms for the high. then just tune the idle in open loop this will stop the huntingon the idle speed

 

[UR50SLO]

The file I sent you was a starting point. I run mine in closed loop from 1200rpm to where the injectors cut off.(6100) (redline)

What you get in closed loop is the ECM trying to keep your actual AFR at where you have the AFR table set at.

Your Fuel Map is what the ECM is using to inject fuel, The difference is your
O2 Correction%. I use that number to adjust my fuel map to closer match where the Actual AFR should be. Once you get your fuel map close you'll notice your O2 Correction% be very low. 1-5% is great.

It takes some time to get it dialed in but that's also alot of fun! Or at least to a nerd like me
~Scott
Good Progress! Keep after it!

 

[callmeebryan]

Crap sorry guys, i meant to say OPEN loop. I got the car idling in open loop and am having those problems. Let me Repost it with the correct terms

Ok guys, i got my car to idle in OPEN loop. Its idling pretty good right around 13.7-14AFR. The issue im having now is that the car hunts real bad when i put it in reverse or drive in idle. I've tried adding timing trim but that didnt seem to help at all. I have it running at 30* at idle.

 

[norbs]

sounds like a vacuum leak to me?