E85 Corrosion Issue, This Is Not Pretty

[GNVYUS 1]

Well, this is why I always said to install a new fuel filter and to check it out after converting. The pics below are probably the worst I've seen concerning this crap and I've got maybe 1000 miles on E85, definitely not that much more. The car did sit for most of 09' into April of 10' with a full tank of E85.

I had the car running great for probably 2 weeks until one night the car got some knock while tracking down a kid in a new BMW who wanted to see how he'd do. I knew I was in trouble after having the Walbro issue so I did another run and bigger than #hit, the fuel pressure isn't 1:1 at WOT and the Wideband is quickly going from low 11's to 17 AF/R with a nice backfire to inform you you're setup sucks.

Pulled everything apart and here's what I got.

1) Magnafuel SS 25 Micron Fuel filter is full of these tiny chunks in which some are gooey and some are hard and turn to dust when you crush them. WTF??? And there were 10x more chunks initially, but pulling it out of the filter and transporting it home in a Ziplock bag knocked most of them out.

2) I had the aluminum anodized fittings for the Fuel Filter custom cut and you can clearly see the aluminum corroded but the anodized parts are fine. These were the only fittings that weren't 100% Stainless or Anodized and now I see why aluminum sucks for E85.

3) Injectors were a tad black and some had some goo in them, super.

4) I drained and pulled the tank, nothing inside except a couple gooey spots on the bottom of the pump. Tanks bowl was totally clean and nothing is in the fuel.

5) Tore apart the Denso fuel sock, nothing inside it, no gooey chunks on the outside either.


I'm calling Magnafuel Monday to see what they say since they've been dealing with Ethanol for decades and their filter was what they recommended for E85 on an FI car.

Off to Caspers Tuesday to get the injectors cleaned and flowed.

I get my GN fuel from one E85 station and my E85 GTO's from another. I wonder if I'm seeing water build up at the filter. Not sure since I've never dealt with this in person.

 

[1outlaw]

Is your fuel tank still vented thru the carbon canister?

 

[jdpolzin]

The stuff will definately eat at bare aluminum. I'm wondering what the heck the ckunks on the filter are though. Since they crumble when yu touch them it obviously a build up that was initially wet then dried so it could have been a deposit that came out of the gas stations fuel tanks. They dont look like something that carroded out of your fuel system. Looks more to be like something that entered your fuel system and then was picked up by the filter.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Vent hose is vented through a small fuel filter now, I wonder if this allowed some moisture to get in while it sat over the winter. I'll probably drain it dry this year and check this off the list.

I have a feeling it's the gas station but I can't get a hold of Magnafuel to see what they say, I'll post back when I do.

 

[1fast6]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[1outlaw]

I would like to see you vent thru some device that does not allow free air exchange like your's is. Every time the temp changes your tank breathes in and out- bringing in moisture. I feel that given how long this car sat that this is the issue you are fighting. While a true pressure vacumm vent would be a problem filling the car (pushing pressure), it would sure help to have something like that for the rest of the time. We always strongly advocated that for gasoline in storage tanks because they would 1) lose gas due to vaporization-- and not all of the 18 or so major compounds but sometimes the very ones you need for good operation, and 2) condensation occurs leaving water in the tank bottom- it's just with E85, it will pick it up into solution and given enough time mild acids like acetic will build. I have never seen one spec of corrosion in my aluminum filter bases on my retail pumps (some have had a million gallons thru them) and they join copper (a non-no) BUT this fuel is always fresh and dry- very important. Someday if I have time I will search for a link to what a Mustang guy from Tenessee did for his carb'ed engine and tank to prevent such free air exchange (he parks his except in summer). The white goo is likely moisture accumulation and chemical interaction with the metal.

Just so all know- ethanol plants run all stainless up to the point where the molesieves take out the last of the water. After that point all will be mild steel with typically aluminum housings on all pumps. Corrosion inhibitor is then put in just prior to shipping and will be effective unless one allows an excessive amount of time combined with air exposure,

 

[1outlaw]

Here it is- it is a "bird" not a "stang" LOL!

Just go down thru the posts to find 393Bird-- it looks like he simply put a ball valve on his fuel cell. (you would sure have to remember to open it before going racing!) I was thinking he rigged up a ball float valve instead.

How to test for water in E85? - E85Performance.net - Discussion Forum for All E85 Car Owners

Notice thru the various threads that this issue is not common at all-BUT-not to be ignored in a fuel system that is not sealed and going to sit in a humid climate that changes temps a lot.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Looks like..

the corn starch has precipitated out of the fuel!
I just cleaned a couple sets of 230# injs on strait meth.. It ate up the system.

 

[Hot Air]

Chuck,
Canb anything be done to stop the precipitation?

Conrad

 

[DR BOOST]

this post is not jdpolzin approved. e85 is the obama of race fuels!

 

[jdpolzin]

this post is not jdpolzin approved. e85 is the obama of race fuels!

HAHA!!!!!! :biggrin:

 

[The_Six]

His is a little scary my car will be sitting all winter and I’m changing over to e-85 .

 

[turboc87gn]

Hmm me too but that setup the e85 stang guy had seems promising hmm seems to me that in winter we need to use the fuel tank drain and then run the car out of e85 then put some sunoco 93 in let it run and let it sit on that for the winter....

 

[The_Six]

That may be a good idea. Does any one know what the pressure in the return line is like? maybe we could run a water seperator on the return line to help get some of the water out of the fuel. Dont know if there is one available that would work with the feed line or not but it would be nice to have one like on my diesel that you cold check every now and then and see if there is a lot of water in the fuel.

 

[1outlaw]

Hmm me too but that setup the e85 stang guy had seems promising hmm seems to me that in winter we need to use the fuel tank drain and then run the car out of e85 then put some sunoco 93 in let it run and let it sit on that for the winter....

Your choice but that seems like overkill to me. 393Bird did most of his work so he could simply fill the carb with gas because there are so many ways for air to enter a carb. I think his idea for a ball valve on the fuel cell vent is more than adequate since this issue is pretty rare and no air can enter a fuel injected set up easily. I know a lot of carb guys who do nothing and get by just fine but thought I would show you another idea for added safety.

 

[1outlaw]

That may be a good idea. Does any one know what the pressure in the return line is like? maybe we could run a water seperator on the return line to help get some of the water out of the fuel. Dont know if there is one available that would work with the feed line or not but it would be nice to have one like on my diesel that you cold check every now and then and see if there is a lot of water in the fuel.

Forget the water separating filter idea for E85- no matter what a filter maker says. It will not work at all! The bond is far to tight to separate outside of using 5 angstrom ceramic beads or zeolite clay. These filters/water separators do work in pure fossil fuels like diesel and gas but never with E85. Keep the water out to begin with.

BTW- my 2001 S10 FFV is only 2wd so it sits every winter since Wisconsin does not have a lot great traction in winter- it is at about 6 winters on E85 and still on original filter at 75,000 miles- yes- I do not drive it much so now my son owns it.

 

[turboc87gn]

Your choice but that seems like overkill to me. 393Bird did most of his work so he could simply fill the carb with gas because there are so many ways for air to enter a carb. I think his idea for a ball valve on the fuel cell vent is more than adequate since this issue is pretty rare and no air can enter a fuel injected set up easily. I know a lot of carb guys who do nothing and get by just fine but thought I would show you another idea for added safety.

Considering all the evidence in the pics and how much buick guys used to drain the tanks to add race gas before alky was popular and some still do,and the hookups are right there behind the alternater it seems more like a simple solution and added insurance that takes an hour or so to do before storing your car before the winter...Consider all the expense and headache the OP had to go thru replacing parts, sending injectors out ,pulling the tank!!!!! Ooomp that !! But thats just me what was the saying about an once of prevention being worth a pound of cure....:biggrin:

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Chuck, it does look like the fuel got bored over the Winter and tried to make some popcorn while waiting for me to return. I'll fix him this Winter.

The ball valve is a good idea, since we're on that subject what about those vented gas caps and then I ditch the vented hose all together? This would equalize pressure whenever the tank needed it and is 100% closed off when it's fine or sitting. Hmmmmm I'd still drain it in the Winter though.

Magnafuel didn't really say anything about the chunks or give a theory on them. They thought the corroded aluminum was an issue but that's only on the two fittings on the Magnafuel 7010 filter and doesn't explain the gooey blob on the Denso pump. So what gets me is since the fuel bleeds down after shut off there really isn't much in the filter to create these chunks from the corroded aluminum. I'm leaning towards the vent taking in moisture and creating this crap in my tank which the Denso pumped into the filter on that first tank of sitting E85.

But they said I can clean the filter element by letting it sit in Brake Fluid or Parts Cleaner to save me $40. I'll see how this goes Tuesday and post pics, might save someone else some $$ later on.

I'm picking up two of the Magnafuel -8an fittings ($42 shipped )
MagnaFuel MP-3013 - MagnaFuel Couplers - Overview - SummitRacing.com
as it has anodizing over the straight part. (I saved $$ by having the shop I bought the old fittings from custom lathe them for me, not realizing it's exposing bare aluminum now).

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Ok the filter cleaned up nicely after a 2 hour bath in Brake Cleaner, don't let the Oring sit in there as they swell up, ooops. After 30 minutes it came back down to size.

Got the new -8an anodized fittings (Magnafuel/Summit) and the new Denso Fuel Filter/Strainer from Advanced Auto for $24 (damn imports).

Injectors cleaned, flowed and internal strainer replaced so everything's looking good to put back together tonight, one thing of course.

How do I get my hands on those small black plastic clips that go on the top of the Siemens 80lb Injectors, it keeps the top Oring from moving off it?

 

[austinibew145]

I have 100% e85 and have been running it for a while. I let it sit in my car over the winter, at least 1/2 tank. I have had my filters off a few times and haven't noticed any thing that looks like what you have. my vent is just some foam that is zip tied over the vent tube to keep dirt out. I do have all new hoses and filters. I also cleaned out my tank with acid, before I started running e85. I heard e85 cleans out varnish from gasoline.

just my $0.02