Dyno, SD Chip w/ 93 and Alky

[esinger]

Yesterday afternoon I was able to park the GN on a Mustang Dyno for quite a few hours. Before I begin, I must first thank Richard Clark to letting me have the Dyno to as long as I wanted. I highly recommend going to the Richard Clark/Kirban/GM Turbo 6 meet http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/national-racing-events-info/256735-gm-turbo-6-october-meet.html it’s going to be a meet like no other. Also I’d like to thanks Pat Broughton (SloGN) and Jim Anson (V6power) for babysitting me while I was dyno’ing.

Okay, so I was able to make about 20 pulls on the dyno (I have all of them datalogged with my Powerlogger). We started with the boost at around 16 lbs and ended with the boost around 24 lbs (too much). My whole purpose of these pulls was to mimic runs at the track and not necessarily high HP and Torque numbers, so the first thing was I didn’t lock the torque converter. The second thing was I shutdown at 90 mph (my ultimate 1/8th mile MPH goal).

In summary, my lowest HP pull was at 223 HP with a torque in the high 200s. My highest pull was 297 HP at around 360 ft lbs torque. All of them were in the 4100 RPM range with a couple of exceptions. All pulls were with 93 octane with methanol (Alkycontrol).

A lot of my runs seem to consist of 2 things, knock when I went to WOT and knock at or close to the end. We basically figured out the knock at the beginning was because the TA49 was spooling up like crazy when I hit the gas. We tried several things to eliminate the beginning knock, but found the magic bullet was the spool fuel parameter of the SD Chip. Once we started increasing that value the knock went away. We were never really able to figure out the knock close to the end of my pulls, there was about 1 to 2 degrees of knock that seems to always happen at around the 88 MPH range. The last few pulls we tried tuning the car at 24 lbs of boost, but no matter what we tried the knock would not go away. We figured that the TA-49 was heating up the air to the point the Alky and 93 octane combination was at its limit. So basically we re-enforced what I figured out at the track that my max boost is now 23 lbs.

It seems that my next logical step is to upgrade the TA-49 with a bigger compressor. That will help me make more boost without cooking the air and also add some turbo lag that it seems I need. Having instant boost is great if you want to cook the tires, but makes it really hard to hooking up at the track.

 

[Jerryl]

Yesterday afternoon I was able to park the GN on a Mustang Dyno for quite a few hours. Before I begin, I must first thank Richard Clark to letting me have the Dyno to as long as I wanted. I highly recommend going to the Richard Clark/Kirban/GM Turbo 6 meet http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/national-racing-events-info/256735-gm-turbo-6-october-meet.html it’s going to be a meet like no other. Also I’d like to thanks Pat Broughton (SloGN) and Jim Anson (V6power) for babysitting me while I was dyno’ing.

Okay, so I was able to make about 20 pulls on the dyno (I have all of them datalogged with my Powerlogger). We started with the boost at around 16 lbs and ended with the boost around 24 lbs (too much). My whole purpose of these pulls was to mimic runs at the track and not necessarily high HP and Torque numbers, so the first thing was I didn’t lock the torque converter. The second thing was I shutdown at 90 mph (my ultimate 1/8th mile MPH goal).

In summary, my lowest HP pull was at 223 HP with a torque in the high 200s. My highest pull was 297 HP at around 360 ft lbs torque. All of them were in the 4100 RPM range with a couple of exceptions. All pulls were with 93 octane with methanol (Alkycontrol).

A lot of my runs seem to consist of 2 things, knock when I went to WOT and knock at or close to the end. We basically figured out the knock at the beginning was because the TA49 was spooling up like crazy when I hit the gas. We tried several things to eliminate the beginning knock, but found the magic bullet was the spool fuel parameter of the SD Chip. Once we started increasing that value the knock went away. We were never really able to figure out the knock close to the end of my pulls, there was about 1 to 2 degrees of knock that seems to always happen at around the 88 MPH range. The last few pulls we tried tuning the car at 24 lbs of boost, but no matter what we tried the knock would not go away. We figured that the TA-49 was heating up the air to the point the Alky and 93 octane combination was at its limit. So basically we re-enforced what I figured out at the track that my max boost is now 23 lbs.

It seems that my next logical step is to upgrade the TA-49 with a bigger compressor. That will help me make more boost without cooking the air and also add some turbo lag that it seems I need. Having instant boost is great if you want to cook the tires, but makes it really hard to hooking up at the track.

Great write-up, and, thanks for sharing!
Not too many people have the "dyno" option to get thing close.

Did you get a chance to play with the PAC setting?

 

[esinger]

Did you get a chance to play with the PAC setting?

Hi Jerryl,

No, the controller box is still unopened. I’ve never touched the settings on the PAC, but was thinking about it yesterday. Unfortunately I didn’t have the PAC instructions with me, so I didn’t know how to adjust the ramp up.

 

[Jerryl]

..... In summary, my lowest HP pull was at 223 HP with a torque in the high 200s. My highest pull was 297 HP at around 360 ft lbs torque. All of them were in the 4100 RPM range with a couple of exceptions. All pulls were with 93 octane with methanol (Alkycontrol).

Eric,
Interesting numbers wityh a Big difference in the TQ number! (I just looked these up :wink: );

Max Power 318.4 @ 4119 RPM / 87.8 MPH with WCF 309.0
Max Torque 439.5 @ 3762 RPM / 77 MPH with WCF 426.6

What was the conver slip % on these vs previous pulls?
Maybe I need to keep my stock unported heads on the car! (Joke! )

Edit:
Before someone starts the "dyno numbers vs track" debate;
Since testing was on the same dyno, I would have thought you would see an increase! ( I am sure you thought that as well)

 

[esinger]

Eric,
Interesting numbers wityh a Big difference in the TQ number! (I just looked these up :wink: );


What was the conver slip % on these vs previous pulls?
Maybe I need to keep my stock unported heads on the car! (Joke! )

Edit:
Before someone starts the "dyno numbers vs track" debate;
Since testing was on the same dyno, I would have thought you would see an increase! ( I am sure you thought that as well)

The old numbers were definitely on the same dyno, however since there was a crowd I locked the TC so that big numbers were posted. It would have been interesting to lock the TC yesterday, but I was tuning for the track and I don't do that on an 1/8th mile run.

I'll have to agree that tuning on a dyno would not be the same as on the track, but part of my goal yesterday was to understand how to tune the car with the new heads and SD chip. That knowledge I can take to the track and work with.

 

[esinger]

What was the conver slip % on these vs previous pulls?

I don't have the Powerlogger files here at work, but doesn't it calculate the slipage somewhere? I'll zip the up later and post them for anyone that wants to see the good and bad of all these pulls. I can't give complete commentary of every one of them, but I pretty much remember most of the highlights.

 

[Boost231]

the powerlogger will show you slipage you just have to put the values in.

 

[Jerryl]

The old numbers were definitely on the same dyno, however since there was a crowd I locked the TC so that big numbers were posted. It would have been interesting to lock the TC yesterday, but I was tuning for the track and I don't do that on an 1/8th mile run.

I'll have to agree that tuning on a dyno would not be the same as on the track, but part of my goal yesterday was to understand how to tune the car with the new heads and SD chip. That knowledge I can take to the track and work with.

Yeah, I know.
My previous "Dyno related" comment was for solely for someone (inherently, there is always someone ) to say that the DYNO numbers mean nothing.
While I do not disagree, I belief it is a good way to get a new set-up close.

I don't have the Powerlogger files here at work, but doesn't it calculate the slipage somewhere? I'll zip the up later and post them for anyone that wants to see the good and bad of all these pulls. I can't give complete commentary of every one of them, but I pretty much remember most of the highlights.

Yes, you need to plug in a few numbers in PL (if you have not yet done so)and it will calculate the TC slip.
Converter slip calculation - Full Throttle Speed Tech Support
I just would have never guessed the BIG delta in the TQ number when you lock the TC, that's all I really was trying to say.

 

[esinger]

Yes, you need to plug in a few numbers in PL (if you have not yet done so)and it will calculate the TC slip.
Converter slip calculation - Full Throttle Speed Tech Support
I just would have never guessed the BIG delta in the TQ number when you lock the TC, that's all I really was trying to say.

Thanks, so if I plug these numbers in will they show the slip on past datalogs or just future ones?

I've been mentally wrestling with the torque numbers myself. First thing that comes to mind is I was told to expect torque to drop when I ported the heads. The second was of course the torque converter was not locked up. The final thing is that the first dyno was back in January which was much cooler and dryer than yesterday (Although I'm really not sure at all about this since the Dyno has weather correction).

 

[Jerryl]

Thanks, so if I plug these numbers in will they show the slip on past datalogs or just future ones?

I've been mentally wrestling with the torque numbers myself. First thing that comes to mind is I was told to expect torque to drop when I ported the heads. The second was of course the torque converter was not locked up. The final thing is that the first dyno was back in January which was much cooler and dryer than yesterday (Although I'm really not sure at all about this since the Dyno has weather correction).

Yeah, colder tamps explain the HP difference, but the torque is about -19%.
I am no expert, but I doubt the difference was in ambient temps.
Don't know.

Thinking out loud ;
The ported heads will raise the max TQ RPM, but again, I did not expect the drop in the final number, and most certainly not at certainly not at the boost level you ran.
One may have expected the converter slip to increase with ported heads (more power), but slip % should decrease at higher rpm. Strange ..............
E-mail me the log when you get a chance ........

 

[esinger]

Here are a Powerlogger files from the 19 (not 20) pulls I had on the Dyno yesterday. I haven't checked every file yet, but I tried to record the HP and Torque in the comments of each file.

The file Dyno 14 was my best pull/run.

Run 1 - Base Run.
Run 2 - Decreased Parameter 1 (WOT Fueling) by 8
Run 3 - Decreased Parameter 11 (Spool Fueling) by 3
Run 4 - Returned Parameter 11 to 128 (Spool Fueling) Increased Alky knob to 5.5
Run 5 - Increased Boost to around 19 Lbs
Run 6 - Increased Parameters 3 & 4 (Timing 1-4) by 4 (2.1 Degrees)
Run 7 - Increased Parameters 3 & 4 (Timing 1-4) by 5 (2.5 Degrees Alky Delay)
Run 8 - Returned Parameters 3 & 4 (Timing 1-4) to 4 and increased the alky to 6 on the knob.
Run 9 - Another boost increase to around 21 lbs and decrease Alky to 5.5
Run 10 - Decreased Parameters 3 & 4 (Timing 1-4) by 2 (1.4 Degrees) and increased parameter 11 by 4 (Spool Fuel)
Run 11 - Increased Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 12 - Slight increase in boost 22 lbs
Run 13 - Another increase in boost 23 lbs
Run 14 - Increased Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 15 - Increased Boost to 24 lbs
Run 16 - Decreased Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 17 - Increase Alky Knob to 6
Run 18 - Decrease Alky to 5.5 incease Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 19 - Decrease Alky to knob to 5

After run 19's huge amount of knock we decided to end it all and go home.

 

[boostmaster]

Here are a Powerlogger files from the 19 (not 20) pulls I had on the Dyno yesterday. I haven't checked every file yet, but I tried to record the HP and Torque in the comments of each file.

After run 19's huge amount of knock we decided to end it all and go home.

Great info now get your arse down to Reynolds and lets whoop some intercooler arse!!:biggrin:

 

[Jerryl]

Here are a Powerlogger files from the 19 (not 20) pulls I had on the Dyno yesterday. I haven't checked every file yet, but I tried to record the HP and Torque in the comments of each file.

The file Dyno 14 was my best pull/run.

Run 9 - Another boost increase to around 21 lbs and decrease Alky to 5.5
Run 14 - Increased Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 18 - Decrease Alky to 5.5 incease Parameter 11 by 2 (Spool Fuel)
Run 19 - Decrease Alky to knob to 5

After run 19's huge amount of knock we decided to end it all and go home.

Eric,
IMO, Your target AFR of 10.6 (Cell 16, run 14) with the alky knob set at 5.5 is a bit rich.

Just wondering; Why did you turn the alky down while you were seeing KR in run 8?
At the boost level you are running, I would max the alky knob, trim the fuel, and get the target AFR to 10.8 - 10.9 with slightly lower timing.
If there is no KR, I would bump the timing a bit.
Personally, I would not run the alky less than 7. (I found a BIG difference on the PAC after 5.5)

Also, did you relocate the IAT?

I am no expert and am certainly not telling you something you don't yet know, it is just that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last week!

FWIW;
I ran my calculator, and it says 303 RWHP
GOOD JOB with the car man!

 

[esinger]

Eric,
IMO, Your target AFR of 10.6 (Cell 16, run 14) with the alky knob set at 5.5 is a bit rich.

Just wondering; Why did you turn the alky down while you were seeing KR in run 8?
At the boost level you are running, I would max the alky knob, trim the fuel, and get the target AFR to 10.8 - 10.9 with slightly lower timing.
If there is no KR, I would bump the timing a bit.
Personally, I would not run the alky less than 7. (I found a BIG difference on the PAC after 5.5)

Also, did you relocate the IAT?

I am no expert and am certainly not telling you something you don't yet know, it is just that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last week!

FWIW;
I ran my calculator, and it says 303 RWHP
GOOD JOB with the car man!

Hi Jerryl, Thanks for the feed back. I just I should have played around with the A/F ratio a bit during the runs. That's kind of were I've seen the car run best. I did try setting the alky to 7 and the A/F to 10.8 with the base 18 degree spark on the road one time before this dyno session. The car went pig rich when I hit the throttle, so I returned it back to the 10.6 and 5.5

Unfortunately I didn't have a way of datalogging the alky adjustments I was making, so I may or may not have turned down the Alky on run 8, I just know I did it on some run in that area (it really be nice to log something about the alky, but I ask Julio one time and it seemed cost prohibitive). The last run (19) was a suggestion of Pat's to see what would happen if we leaned the alky more (wasn't a good move for sure), but the rest of the advice he gave me was on the money.

The IAT is located on the air filter, should I have relocated it? If so where should it go and I'll relocate it soon.

The tuning is not over by a long shot, I just know more about what the car reacts to best now.

Thanks!

 

[esinger]

Great info now get your arse down to Reynolds and lets whoop some intercooler arse!!:biggrin:

Hi Boostmaster, I'd love to come down to Reynolds, but it's not looking good at this point. I haven't found anyone going in my area that has a truck and a trailer in case the worst happens. I'm guessing this is a good 5 hour drive one way and I would not be a happy camper if I broke down on the road or on the track.

I've have my share of IC guys in the middle of October for the Clark/Kirban/GM Turbo 6 meet

 

[Jerryl]

...........
The IAT is located on the air filter, should I have relocated it? If so where should it go and I'll relocate it soon. ...........

Eric,

All SD set-ups work of MAP, MAT, RPM, TPS, WB, MPH input (Something like that )
It is my humble understanding that the IAT must become a MAT, to calculate fuel based on intake charge temps.
Now, you can see how it becomes real tricky when you start spraying Alky and dropping the MAT, while letting the ECM spray more fuel due to lower MAT.

The fuel curve has be altered and adjusted, specifically for the Hot Air cars!
This takes a LOT of time and data, and this is where TurboTweak® did the homework! (Shameless plug :biggrin: )
Man are we blessed to have TurboTweak®!

We all have tuning left, but, with the closed loop tech, the car is a LOT LESS finicky to weather, gas mix and alky setting changes!
Keep up the good work!!!

 

[esinger]

Hi Jerryl, thanks for the info!

So basically I need to relocate the IAT. Unless there's a better idea out there, it looks like the best thing to do is T off the line that's feeding the MAP sensor.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[SloGN]

Eric,
IMO, Your target AFR of 10.6 (Cell 16, run 14) with the alky knob set at 5.5 is a bit rich.

Just wondering; Why did you turn the alky down while you were seeing KR in run 8?
At the boost level you are running, I would max the alky knob, trim the fuel, and get the target AFR to 10.8 - 10.9 with slightly lower timing.
If there is no KR, I would bump the timing a bit.
Personally, I would not run the alky less than 7. (I found a BIG difference on the PAC after 5.5)

Also, did you relocate the IAT?

I am no expert and am certainly not telling you something you don't yet know, it is just that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last week!

FWIW;
I ran my calculator, and it says 303 RWHP
GOOD JOB with the car man!

think that this car like to be a tad on the rich side of life. If you will look at his log files in the early runs his target AF was set at around 10.8-10.9 and the car would get KR all through out the run not just at the hit. BY adding some spool fuel and fuel overall the power #'s were coming up. I don'te really pay too much attention to AF # unless the car starts losing power from either being too lean or too rich. The fat that the car started making more power with less KR was telling me that his combo was wanting more fuel. You tune to what the engine is happy with not just a overall AF and say thats it. every car/combo is different this is why it's called tuning :biggrin:

One thing too is that we were going by the wideband that was on the car and not the one for the dyno since we were tring to make runs like one would do on the race track.

dyno pulls were made from 60-90 mph 3rd gear pull only.

the one thing that remained constant was there always seems to be KR @ the 47-4800 rpm on every run so i thing that there is something moving hitting to be at the same place everytime.

also when we increased the Alky the car would just lay over bog so we were happy with leaving the alky in that setting and just adjust the spool fuel and over all fuel.

Also The spool fuel is more like a AE enrichment adjustment from the way it works. As we increased that parameter the knock @ the hit went away instantly. So it's more of a (pump shot ) best i can tell. we started @ 128 and ended up with 138 at the end.

If one would factor in about 20% loss thru the drive train that means he is making about 345-350 @ the crank. The TA-49 moves enough air to support 450 HP at the crank providing that everything is perfect.

 

[Jerryl]

.......... also when we increased the Alky the car would just lay over bog so we were happy with leaving the alky in that setting and just adjust the spool fuel and over all fuel.

Also The spool fuel is more like a AE enrichment adjustment from the way it works. As we increased that parameter the knock @ the hit went away instantly. So it's more of a (pump shot ) best i can tell. we started @ 128 and ended up with 138 at the end.

If one would factor in about 20% loss thru the drive train that means he is making about 345-350 @ the crank. The TA-49 moves enough air to support 450 HP at the crank providing that everything is perfect.

Cool stuff man!
You guys are doing one HECK of a job on this tune and set-up.
Like I said, I am no expert and I am trying to learn from the runs as well.

Hi Jerryl, thanks for the info!

So basically I need to relocate the IAT. Unless there's a better idea out there, it looks like the best thing to do is T off the line that's feeding the MAP sensor.

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
I think there is a "best location" and a "convenient location".
It is my belief that the "best technical location" is right before the injector, in the runner.

 

[SloGN]

Cool stuff man!
You guys are doing one HECK of a job on this tune and set-up.
Like I said, I am no expert and I am trying to learn from the runs as well.




Eric,
I think there is a "best location" and a "convenient location".
It is my belief that the "best technical location" is right before the injector, in the runner.

No problem dude! i'm still learning too even after 10yrs over owning a trouble-charged regal






Well i think it needs to be in the plenum area instead of the runner. It being in the runner will impead airflow making that cylinder run a tad richer than the other five.

All it needs to know is the plenum air temp.

when i first put my fast system on my car i didn't relocate the IAT until about a yr later and it had no ill effect on the tune.

But.. one good thing about the iat being in the intake is one woule be able to datalog true air temps through out the run/dyno pull.

also talking about the TC % slip. we are now making almost as much power now with the convertor not locked up @ 2psi less boost over his last dyno pull that was @ 25psi with the convertor locked. so that tells me we must be doing something right

I also don't look @ the Max HP/TQ numbers on a dyno it's just a tool to help tune with kinda like making a change @ the race track and noting how much the MPH went up or down to tell you if you made a change for the better or worse.

All i count for is the ET and not blowing it up :biggrin:


All i can say it's being a learning curve tuning a hot-air over a I/C car. each one like diffrent things.