(Cam) Lobe Woes (with New Motor)

[Terbro]

Now was the time to take a look at what cam I have, during the r&r of my new heads (installing Champion Irons). Nick Micale didn't know what cam had been installed (by his engine builder). He guessed it was a 206/206 cam, but he wasn't sure. Partially my fault, as we never discussed what cam I wanted, but that's another story.

So I had my mechanic pull the cam. Firstly, it was discovered that it's a TA Performance 208/208 cam (V264H). But he noticed that a couple of the lobes were significantly worn. See pics. My motor has maybe 1K miles on it (max 1,400). These are lobes 2 & 3, closest to the front of the motor.

Fortunately, because I assumed I had a max of what Nick thought, which was the 206/206 cam, I already ordered a new 212/212 cam from Cotton's. I may not have ordered it if I had known I had a 208/208 cam, but now that I know I have damage to this one, I'm glad I did (and a bit of an upgrade won't hurt, especially with the Champions).

So the big question is - why did this happen? Improper initial cam break in? Or was it that I didn't baby it enough for the first 500 miles like my mechanic said should normally be done. I asked Nick before I received the my car back if I should take it easy on the motor for x first miles to break it in, and he told me it wasn't necessary. I probably avoided full WOT for the first 100 miles anyway (at least for prolonged periods of time).
And I wonder how much power loss the cam damage has been causing. I've made significant progress at ironing out the cutting out, but the motor was still falling flat on power at 3rd gear. Don't know if that's related or not. And as I mentioned before, it didn't feel as powerful as it did when I first got it.

My only concern is to avoid it happening again.

 

[jasjamz]

So... have you learned why most people use hydraulic rollers cams in these cars?
I had that happen three times since 2000. All three happened in matter of two months. Never used a flat tappet cam again. It could have been a few simple things or a combination of things. Just like some ass ugly broke men hook a supermodel, flat tappets work for some not the majority.

So where is all that fine ground metal now...rub you finger on any oily internal and look really close...see that shimmery stuff?

 

[Terbro]

Jack Cotton recommend a roller cam as well. Other than upgrading to 140+ lb springs (which I remember him saying is required), is there anything else that needs to be done?

The 212/212 cam hasn't shipped yet...I believe he's planning on shipping it tomorrow.

 

[larrym]

Roller rockers are preferred orHD rocker shafts with braces.

 

[Terbro]

And now I'm trying to figure out why Cotton's roller cam kit is $934. http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EngRC

The flat tappet cam is $220. He sells roller rockers independently for $290. He sells a double roller timing chain for $60. "Normal" valve springs (92 lb) are $46. There's a difference of $318. I know the roller valve springs would be 140+ lb, but still. Is the cam made out of a different (harder) metal?

And larrym's comment sounds familiar. I think Jack mentioned roller rockers being needed with a roller cam as well when I spoke with him on Friday. So $220 for a new flat tappet looks like it would turn into almost $1,600 for a roller cam. Well, more than that...new valve covers.

The question still remains - why did the flat tappet wear?

 

[Terbro]

Roller rockers are preferred orHD rocker shafts with braces.

Googled "heavy duty rocker shafts buick grand national" and this is the only thing I found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-Grand...-Shafts-Rocker-Arms-and-Buttons-/231830127836 Do you know who else sells them? I love the idea of roller rockers, but I need to figure out if I can upgrade to a roller cam with everything considered. I found RJC and Kirbans has braces.

 

[TURBOELKY]

If your new cam is over .500 lift you might want to have the new champions checked. I believe they are set up for .500 lift max lift, and flat tappet springs. Do you mean cotton sells roller lifters for $290? Roller rockers are around $6-700 for a set. I haven't looked at cottons roller setup but I'm willing to bet it's around $1k because it would be a complete deal. I think you should make sure you know what is going on before you put your engine back together.

And as far as your flat tappet cam going flat, could have been a few things. One thing is for sure, there is no guarantee a perfectly broken in flat tappet cam won't go flat and fail at some point.

 

[TURBOELKY]

Also, If Jack still has complete comp cam roller kits, it would have authentic 885 lifters which were about $450 alone. That cam button is about $50. Iron roller cams are about $285, $60 timing chain (which I wouldn't use) $200 on springs locks and retainers.

 

[t-typinator]

E-mail those pics to T/A performance and explain the situation,ie: new motor,with a thousandish miles and see what they think would have worn their cam so quick.
Did you check to see if the springs you have are the correct springs for that cam ?

 

[Terbro]

If your new cam is over .500 lift you might want to have the new champions checked. I believe they are set up for .500 lift max lift, and flat tappet springs. Do you mean cotton sells roller lifters for $290? Roller rockers are around $6-700 for a set. I haven't looked at cottons roller setup but I'm willing to bet it's around $1k because it would be a complete deal. I think you should make sure you know what is going on before you put your engine back together.

And as far as your flat tappet cam going flat, could have been a few things. One thing is for sure, there is no guarantee a perfectly broken in flat tappet cam won't go flat and fail at some point. Go roller and stop looking for more blame...I would hate to see a post like the last disaster bickering fest.

I'll address you last comment first. I'm not "looking" for more blame. I'm *solely* interested in it not happening again. Okay? I've made no emphasis on it being a bitch post, only that I'm putting in a new cam, and want to avoid it happening again. I have listed the facts, which are important however for those who can use it...so they don't do the same as I have, to avoid costly mistakes. That's valuable information, and simply part of the history and possible cause - i.e., *important* to speak about.

I just read this thread: http://turbobuick.com/threads/benefits-of-a-roller-cam.375422/page-2 Many are favoring the roller cam, and a few are mentioning the benefits of ZDDP. Never heard mention of it before that thread. I also saw a mention of keeping the oil cool. Nick and several others in my local TR club didn't feel the oil cooler was necessary. It had been removed from my car when I bought it. I only recently reinstalled it (less than 150 miles ago). I ran full synthetic oil, including Royal Purple with my first oil change at 100 miles. I also changed the oil at 1K miles with full syn then. Now I'm reading that conventional oil with ZDDP may be important for flat tappet cams, along with cooler oil temps. Of course I never raced the car unless the coolant temp was in the 160's or low 170's. But again, that was w/o the oil cooler (until recently).

To address your first comments, Jack Cotton says that he's installed cams with over .500 lift in many Champion Irons. You are correct, according to Champion's website, just what you say. But to upgrade to a roller cam, 140+ springs would be required. I'm believe that's the difference, to allow a roller cam. The 212/212 roller cam he sells has a lift of .504

Yes, Cotton's sells roller lifters by themselves for $290. http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1412-12 Where I'm confused, is if roller lifters can be use on any cam. This cam, which I've currently got ordered, (the one I believe has not yet shipped): http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EngHTC Or if a roller cam is a uniquely designed specifically for roller lifters. That cam, while a 212/212 cam, has a lift of .456/.456, whereas his complete roller cam kit, which as you can see is complete with roller lifters, springs and double roller timing chain has the lift I mentioned of .504/.504. http://cottonsperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EngRC (that's the $934).

So absolutely...I'm calling Jack in the morning, asking him what the deal is, to see if things can be mixed/matched, to save a few hundred dollars w/o issues. I'll be asking him where that $300+ is coming from. I respect Jack, but since he's got roller lifters for $290, a double roller timing chain for $60, a flat tappet cam for $220 and regular springs, for $46, I'll be asking him where the $300 is coming from.

And all that said, I've heard lots o' testimony from folks who've praised their roller cams. I'm not a fan of the $934, plus $300 for HD rocker shafts, + braces, plus valve covers, but if it's going to avoid wiping another cam, I'll do it. And that said, if adding ZDDP, using syn blend oil, a very careful break in period and now having the oil cooler will prevent wiping a flat tappet, and save me ~$1,200+, then it's not something I'll make a decision on quickly.

 

[Terbro]

Also, If Jack still has complete comp cam roller kits, it would have authentic 885 lifters which were about $450 alone. That cam button is about $50. Iron roller cams are about $285, $60 timing chain (which I wouldn't use) $200 on springs locks and retainers.

That would explain it.

 

[Terbro]

E-mail those pics to T/A performance and explain the situation,ie: new motor,with a thousandish miles and see what they think would have worn their cam so quick.
Did you check to see if the springs you have are the correct springs for that cam ?

I have not. Nick's builder built it, so I *assume* they are.

Not a bad idea though - to email the pics to TA. Is it unusual or common for an isolated 2 lobes to get wiped, or do most or all of them get wiped when a cam wipes? The other lobes all look fine, is my point.

 

[1KWIKSIX]

Ask the engine builder what are the valve spring pressures (1) on the seat at installed height 1.727" and also (2) at 1.340".
I'd be curious to see the results. Too much pressure on a new flat tappet cam could be the culprit.

 

[ITSAV6]

Did you or your mechanic do the proper cam break in? What oil? Those two cams you gave the link to are flat tappet cams, the lifters are in the pic. No you can't use roller lifters except on a roller cam. Cut the oil filter open and look for metal in it. If there is it is in the bearings and the rest of the oiling system also. I say spend the extra $'s for the roller cam.

 

[WPP-Bill]

Did you or your mechanic do the proper cam break in? What oil?

I don't recall seeing how the cam was broke in, and definitely an important question to ask.

There's a reason why we only sell roller cams, and avoiding the problems with an improper break-in being high on the list.

 

[Mike T]

Mine started going away @ around 10k. There were no signs of trouble..... it ran great and the oil always looked good. I lifted the heads (with stock type gaskets) so it was torn down to remove debris and that's when the problem was found.

It didn't have the lobe loss that you have but It did have measurable loss and a few of the lifters were concave by a couple of thousandths. Mine probably would have went many more miles before showing up as a problem.

I used the proper oils and paste during assembly and break-in so I really feel as if everything was done correctly.

With my personal experience I would say that the builder could have done everything right and still once in a while (with a flat tappet cam) this will happen.

 

[Boost231]

.

I just read this thread: http://turbobuick.com/threads/benefits-of-a-roller-cam.375422/page-2 Many are favoring the roller cam, and a few are mentioning the benefits of ZDDP. Never heard mention of it before that thread. I also saw a mention of keeping the oil cool. Nick and several others in my local TR club didn't feel the oil cooler was necessary. It had been removed from my car when I bought it. I only recently reinstalled it (less than 150 miles ago). I ran full synthetic oil, including Royal Purple with my first oil change at 100 miles. I also changed the oil at 1K miles with full syn then. Now I'm reading that conventional oil with ZDDP may be important for flat tappet cams, along with cooler oil temps. Of course I never raced the car unless the coolant temp was in the 160's or low 170's. But again, that was w/o the oil cooler (until recently).


And all that said, I've heard lots o' testimony from folks who've praised their roller cams. I'm not a fan of the $934, plus $300 for HD rocker shafts, + braces, plus valve covers, but if it's going to avoid wiping another cam, I'll do it. And that said, if adding ZDDP, using syn blend oil, a very careful break in period and now having the oil cooler will prevent wiping a flat tappet, and save me ~$1,200+, then it's not something I'll make a decision on quickly.

see the highlighted areas..

The red is a probably one of the major factors of why you had the issues.

The Green Should be used in every oil change IMOP regardless of oil type.

The oil cooler isnt the issue here. the oil coler isn't going to prevent wiping a lobe.

Also whith installing the oil cooler with it being off the car for so long i hope you cleaned it very well and i hope your radiator oil cooler was clean and free of any contaminants.

 

[pacecarta]

you cant run roller lifters with a flat tappet cam ,
lobe grinds are totally different . the flat tappet cam has a downhill taper of the lobe to spin the flat tappet lifter (really isnt flat ) to allow oil to stay between the lifter face and lobe so it doesn't ride on just one area which would accelerate wear
the roller cam is ground straight without the taper on the lobe as it has to meet a narrow roller tip on the lifter square , also the lobe design is different because the contact is a very small area
to follow the more aggressive lobes that you can run due to the roller lifter roller cams need higher spring pressure than flat cams , they also need a spring that meets the needs of the increased lobe lift
most roller kits include beehive springs that need specific retainers and locks ,
roller lifters can be morel or comp , depends on what you want , morel are cheaper and fine for many but jacks kits say they use comp roller lifters
roller cams need a shim button on the nose of the cam

stock heads have to be checked for spring retainer to guide clearance on any cam over .480 lift
champion iron heads are clearanced at the valve guide and with proper spring can run most off the shelf cast roller cams under .550" travel at the valve

synthetics arent the best for flat tappet cams as it formulated for modern engines to extend cat converter life so they had to lower the zinc level which was important for flat tappets but since as all motors since 1988 have rollers in them they did what was needed for the converter
run conventional add the zddp and change it often

 

[EVIL]

You also need to check the crank bearings.

That metal went somewhere.

drain the oil and look for the metal.

Remove oil pan and check the easier to get to center caps.

D

 

[TURBOELKY]

Putting synthetic oil in the engine with only 100 miles was a bad move. Doesn't matter what manny moe and Jack say, engine shouldn't see a drop of synthetic oil for at least 3-4K miles, and never seeing synthetic is even better. That topic will cause major controversy, but yeah, I just said it.

Now that the cam has wiped a lobe, your oil system needs to be flushed, and if you're running the oil cooler on the factory radiator, only way to clean that is sonic cleaning as far as I'm aware. You don't need it anyways. If you want to run an oil cooler, run an external cooler. I've had two flat tappet cams go bad on me long time ago. The new build I bit the bullet and went billet roller. Flat tappet is garbage.