E85 No Intercooler
- Thread starter 87chrisss
- Start date
Boost231 said:
The amount of latent heat of vaporization could be calculated fairly easily if the volumes of methanol /ethanol and mass flow of the air and inlet temp was known. Methanol has one of the highest latent heat of vaporization vs boiling point. Low boiling point and a lot of energy absorbed during vaporization. Exactly what you need to drop cylinder temps rapidly. The compression of the intake mixture rapidly raises the temp and further increases the vaporization of the alky.
The precious commodity we need to make power is oxygen. 10.8 parts of air for every one part of fuel. The air that we stuff into our motors contains only 22% oxygen. The rest of the gasses in the air we breath do nothing for the combustion process. They just get in the way. If we put hot air into the motor,the motor gets less oxygen. Every internal combustion engine make more power with colder air as long as we inject the additional amount of fuel to go with it.
The best way to cool the air that a turbo charger makes is to cool it while it is being compressed. If we can cool the air while we compress it,we have a better chance of running without an intercooler because we haven't heated it up in the first place and for any given amount of work done by the turbine,the motor will receive more oxygen than it would otherwise. The best way to do this is to inject water into the compressor. Nothing on the planet has the ability to remove as much heat as water. Not even alcohol. The heat removed by using either of these liquids is removed as the liquid evaporates. Alcohol evaporates at a lower temp than water so it provides much more cooling in a cooler environment. Water needs higher temps to evaporate and remove heat and since it has the ability to remove a lot of heat,pre turbo water injection is the application where water injection shines.
Water injection can't touch alcohol injection if it's injected after the intercooler.
Alcohol injection can't touch water injection if it's injected before the turbo.
There's no need to debate about which one is better because they both have different applications.
The best way to go is to use both in the applications where they shine.
http://wannaspeed.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=181
I do have a pte fm which i will install before i take it down the track I think not sure yet.....Im really kinda interested in the no intercooler it just intrigues me.. BUT I really would like as much working for me as possible, but you cant deny the fact that i was running close to 30 #'s and that the Ethanol is helping me stay away from detonation and or keeping my motor together with those intake temps. Lets also not forget the timing is pretty high. I ran more boost than whats on that screen shot but i had some minimal KR on 2-3 shift so i lifted. If i really wanted too i don't see why i couldn't reach my goal non intercooled. Cram the cylinder with a bunch of boost and throw a bitch load of fuel, drop the timing a few degrees and get it done. Look @ my AFR on the screenshot, That's basically the same that i was previously running with a Stretched SLIC. But like i said, i have some logs of it without intercooler i will try the same tune with FM intercooler compare logs once the intercooler is on. Regardless i need as much working for me as possible seems like all the stock parts will be working against me but it's going to get done. I do agree on your post though, the cooler the air the more oxygen it will have due to the density of the molecules being closer together.
BTW i just wanted to say im not running cold plugs either
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BTW i just wanted to say im not running cold plugs either
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Havent tested it with an intercooler since turbo swap. I actually sold my SLIC to buy a FMIC. Not that i dont like a SLIC but it just seems its always in the damn way when im trying to do something. Now i have the FMIC and i noticed its prob the same crap because of these huge ass IC tubing that takes the place of the SLIC.
87chrisss said:Havent tested it with an intercooler since turbo swap. I actually sold my SLIC to buy a FMIC. Not that i dont like a SLIC but it just seems its always in the damn way when im trying to do something. Now i have the FMIC and i noticed its prob the same crap because of these huge ass IC tubing that takes the place of the SLIC.
The piping takes about 3 minutes to disconnect. The stock location intercooler takes much longer to disconnect.
When the water in my driveway changes state from a liquid to a gas it is refereed to as evaporation. They are two different ways of describing the same thing.
Im not worried about it i have read alot and have trialed and error'd my own car for a few months already. Seems like all information online is inconsistent so either go with someone's information you trust OR trial and error on your own car. I run AC delco's r43ts gap'd @ 30 And i have been running them for awhile now with e85. Even @ over 30 psi i have never had a problem. My stock car is still together and i have never blown a HG. Basically A hot spot is created if you lean out. I make sure i dont lean out. And the consistency of my fuel is truly 85% Ethanol. I see alot of posts on here that are comical with the whole fuel line thing and these cold plugs and the ethanol will corrode anything in its path and the fuel pumps and blablaa and i dont even put my 2 cents in. If i keep listening to ppl and copyin them i will be stuck on there level forever. Someone's gotta try out different things. Not that i disagree on new fuel lines or anything else but everyone seems to copy each other on this site. I cant wait to run my time and post up my slip.. I still have stock lines on my car.. and yes the stock ac delco filter One guy runs a time and everyone jumps in to ask what cam how much boost what heads.. Im going to say..It's just how it came from factory with some bolt on's
Pre-ignition is always bad for an engine, it kills the engine very rapidly, usually by melting the crown of the piston.
Detonation and pre-ignition are different processes but frequently one leads to the other.
There is a slight grain of truth in it as with alcohol fuels (ethanol or methanol) your power output is higher +5% +15%, so the heat load on the engine is higher when things go wrong.
A lean out on alcohol is as a result slightly more fatal than the same event on gasoline.
Due to the strong mixture cooling from alcohol fuels pre-ignition is not much of an issue.
Since carbon build up is lower on alcohol fuels, there is less potentential for a hot spot to develop due to carbon build up.
Autoignition temperature for gasoline is 495 °F
Autoignition temperature for ethanol is 685 °F
Autoignition temperature for Methanol is 851 °F
One guy runs a time and everyone jumps in to ask what cam how much boost what heads.. Im going to say..It's just how it came from factory with some bolt on's Pre-ignition is always bad for an engine, it kills the engine very rapidly, usually by melting the crown of the piston.
Detonation and pre-ignition are different processes but frequently one leads to the other.
There is a slight grain of truth in it as with alcohol fuels (ethanol or methanol) your power output is higher +5% +15%, so the heat load on the engine is higher when things go wrong.
A lean out on alcohol is as a result slightly more fatal than the same event on gasoline.
Due to the strong mixture cooling from alcohol fuels pre-ignition is not much of an issue.
Since carbon build up is lower on alcohol fuels, there is less potentential for a hot spot to develop due to carbon build up.
Autoignition temperature for gasoline is 495 °F
Autoignition temperature for ethanol is 685 °F
Autoignition temperature for Methanol is 851 °F
87chrisss said:Im not worried about it i have read alot and have trialed and error'd my own car for a few months already. Seems like all information online is inconsistent so either go with someone's information you trust OR trial and error on your own car. I run AC delco's r42's gap'd @ 30 And i have been running them for awhile now with e85. Even @ over 30 psi i have never had a problem. My stock car is still together and i have never blown a HG. Basically A hot spot is created if you lean out. I make sure i dont lean out. And the consistency of my fuel is truly 85% Ethanol. I see alot of posts on here that are comical with the whole fuel line thing and these cold plugs and the ethanol will corrode anything in its path and the fuel pumps and blablaa and i dont even put my 2 cents in. If i keep listening to ppl and copyin them i will be stuck on there level forever. Someone's gotta try out different things. Not that i disagree on new fuel lines or anything else but everyone seems to copy each other on this site. I cant wait to run my time and post up my slip.. I still have stock lines on my car.. and yes the stock ac delco filter
Pre-ignition is always bad for an engine, it kills the engine very rapidly, usually by melting the crown of the piston.
Detonation and pre-ignition are different processes but frequently one leads to the other.
There is a slight grain of truth in it as with alcohol fuels (ethanol or methanol) your power output is higher +5% +15%, so the heat load on the engine is higher when things go wrong.
A lean out on alcohol is as a result slightly more fatal than the same event on gasoline.
Due to the strong mixture cooling from alcohol fuels pre-ignition is not much of an issue.
Since carbon build up is lower on alcohol fuels, there is less potentential for a hot spot to develop due to carbon build up.
Autoignition temperature for gasoline is 495 °F
Autoignition temperature for ethanol is 685 °F
Autoignition temperature for Methanol is 851 °F
Great post. Doing what everybody else does will leave at best where they are. Thinking outside is what makes you quicker. For a long time in the mid 90's many thought 22psi was the limit. I just agreed with them and ran my usual 28-30psi. It took years for this to be figured out. Also alky/94 was a staple for me back in the mid 90's. Many denounced it even though I whipped them with my unopened engine when they had bad ass heads and bigger turbo. They were scratching their heads wondering what the magic part was. All along there was nothing special there. The fact was they were misinformed and their tune sucked. They were the limitation. News travels much faster now than it did back then. Bad Internet posts are a big reason for a lot of bad results.
Doing things different is good because you learn things that nobody can talk you out of believing. It won't even be a matter of believing. It will be a matter of knowing. How can someone talk you out of believing something that you know is true? However,the fact that you can run a lot of boost and make good power with hot air is nothing new. I'm a big fan of E85 as it allows me to do things that high octane gasoline didn't. The bottom line is that cold air makes more power and there's nothing you can do to change that. More oxygen makes more power. It just a basic law of physics. This is why a motor running on alcohol makes more power than on gasoline. Ethanol is 35 % oxygen by weight.
Now,if we want to make even more power than the extra power alcohol allows us to make,we run the motor on a colder day with higher barometric pressure. Every motor will make more power if we do this. If you want to run your motor with hot air,you should be able to have a lot of fun doing it. If you want to set a world record,you'll have to run the motor with cold air.
Quarter mile times are a function of traction. You seem to be exited about making a lot of power. If you think running hot air is a good way to make power,you can test this theory by running the car on a 90 degree day and a 50 degree day and compare the MPH.
If you want to do something out of the box in this community,play with pre turbo water injection. No one else will.
TType 6 i have played with pre and post alky/water injection. Nothing wrong with it, and absolutely it works never said it didn't.. I have even tried E85 injection into the upipe Who has tried that? No one! I'm the only one and I got bashed on here for doing it. No im not trying to make a world record. Alot of folks have done it before me im a nobody?
But I will have a PTE fm when i step on the 1/8 mile. And actually my screen shot log without intercooler is on 90 degree ambient air. (im in Miami) Also i just did my rear suspension a few months ago with upper and lower control arms and bigger sway bar to correct my traction issues.
Im not trying to do anything out of the ordinary simple basic tuning measures are still needed. And yes it is hilarious when ppl claim some special things are needed when i know what i run and what i have been running that has worked for me. It's been ups and downs with my car i do my own tuning and my own work with exceptions to a few pointer's that i bother Bison for and other folks on here.. It really kills me to ask other people because i rather do it on my own but there's some things i need help on that i dont know or need a direction to go with.
But I will have a PTE fm when i step on the 1/8 mile. And actually my screen shot log without intercooler is on 90 degree ambient air. (im in Miami) Also i just did my rear suspension a few months ago with upper and lower control arms and bigger sway bar to correct my traction issues.
Im not trying to do anything out of the ordinary simple basic tuning measures are still needed. And yes it is hilarious when ppl claim some special things are needed when i know what i run and what i have been running that has worked for me. It's been ups and downs with my car i do my own tuning and my own work with exceptions to a few pointer's that i bother Bison for and other folks on here.. It really kills me to ask other people because i rather do it on my own but there's some things i need help on that i dont know or need a direction to go with.
Pronto said:
The o2 would have to be monitored extremely carefully based on tps. Much more carefully than i think our ecms are capable of. Get too much oxygen and heat in the combustion chambers and your pistons and block could literally catch fire and burn. Very similar to what an oxy-acetylene torch does to steel.
Don't feel to bad. Some people will make fun of you for suggesting that oxygen plays a critical role in the production of power in the internal combustion engine.
Nuff said.
PTE fmic on/ I was surprised it only lost about 2-4 #'s. Had to trun it up some to get back up to 29 psi, anyway's i honestly dont run timing this low i like it higher might have made an error when dropping it some previously. Need some seat time at the track to get that launch set right. Feels like a very low 7 sec car maybe lower b/o a veteran who i took for a ride today he's not sure if it has the 6'9 in her just yet i needa feed her as much boost as i can and bump up timing to about 23 degrees im pretty safe with afr.. So really just need to get the seat time to get it launching good And then play some with timing/boost hope she does it.
