ZDDP plus and VR-1

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TurboBuRick

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The radio show last night with Glen from Highway Stars raised eyebrows when the discussion turned to the effects of zddp and vr1 oil. Considering there are allot of peeps here running these together, we need to get the facts on this.

Apparently we are waisting our money adding zddp to vr1 oil. May even cause damage. Something about a chemical imbalance causing metal break down. Things went over my head at that point so I hope Glen will chime in. ;)
 
I run both and the only issue I would anticipate would be for those who run a Catalytic converter that it is supposed to be bad for it. I have not seen any adverse effect in my motor and most people know I beat on mine like it owes me money. :eek:

Steve
 
I missed the broadcast as well. I use ZDDP and have had no problems. I also run Royal Purple 5W30. What is VR1 oil?
 
TurboBuRick..........Apparently we are waisting our money adding zddp to vr1 oil. May even cause damage. Something about a chemical imbalance causing metal break down. Things went over my head at that point so I hope Gen will chime in. ;)[/QUOTE said:
I also want to know where he obtained this information?

Years of personal experience with MANY turbo Buicks have NOT shown any bad effects using VR-1 with ZDDP, as well as with EOS before there was ZDDP.

This is with street and strip cars where we have been inside the engines to verify condition.

Since I do not know Glen, or even know what qualifies him to make such a statement, he should come forth with facts and data to prove this statement.

The internet makes it easy for "experts" to make bogus statements for various reasons, so my comment is either "put up, or shut up"! :D
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Too much Zinc and Phosphorous ?

This is my understanding of what I heard.

SG classification oils (mid 80's) had the highest percentage of Zinc (Z) & Phosphorous (P), somewhere in the 1200 to 1300 parts per million (ppm).

I think all that Glen was trying to do is alert people that too much is just as harmful as not enough. High lift flat tappet cams with high spring pressures are killing flat tappet cams with most of todays SM classification motor oils because of the reduced levels of Zinc & Phosphorous. These have been reduced in the newer classification oils because todays modern engines don't usually use flat tapped cams, also and the high levels of ZDDP cause premature failure of catalytic convertors which doesn't sit well with EPA.

Specific Reports from the oil companies (not sure of which oil company) were reported to state that Zinc levels in motor oils beyond 1400 parts per million will cause premature motor wear.

Ditto, on the Phosphorous at levels beyond 2000 parts per million will cause wear, by eating thru hardened surfaces like cam lobes - destroying your motor.

When I checked on line, the Brad Penn Grade 1 Motor Oil that I use is stated to have 1,500ppm Zinc (Z) & 1,340 to 1,400ppm of Phosphorous (P).

By the sounds of it, should be enough to meet the demands req'd by our flat tappet cams.

However, I do recall reading somewhere (not sure if it was Dennis Kirban or Richard Clark)....that these levels of ZDDP are reduced with use, as you drive and put miles on.

So maybe it's best that you check the specs. of the particular engine oil you are using to determine how much ZDDP Plus you'll need above and beyond what's in it straigh outta the can.

I'm still going to use it, (have been using 1/2 bottle per oil change with Brad Penn Oil), however, may not add it on the initial oil change (but will add it later, after the oil has seen a thousand miles or so

Maybe best if Richard or Dennis could chime in and give their perspective on this + any facts vs fiction.

Overall, enjoyed last nights broadcast & look forward to the next.
 
My engine builder JMS racing engines in California recommended the VR-1 and ZDDP plus when they rebuilt my street engine. I tried to get an answer from Richard Clark in various postings on the subject of VR-1 with the Plus, but never got an answer
 
williamsGN said:
My engine builder JMS racing engines in California recommended the VR-1 and ZDDP plus when they rebuilt my street engine. I tried to get an answer from Richard Clark in various postings on the subject of VR-1 with the Plus, but never got an answer
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I actually listened to the first 20 minutes of the broadcast and after hearing about his rather limited understanding of O2 sensors I sort of felt it was actually an embarrassment to the TR community to have someone without a deeper understanding representing us to the automotive community-------at that point I went back to helping a friend build his engine at my shop--------a little later I got a couple calls about the flattering comments Glenn sent my way-------snake oil of the millennium puts me in pretty good company--------maybe even up there with Bernie Madoff--------I guess I have to apologize to all of you guys that have been intimidated by my use of "BIG WORDS"--------so I guess I will have to dumb it down a little------seriously-------lets look at this with some non biased intelligence-------I didn't invent the darn stuff------its been in our oil protecting our engines for over 60 years--------since EPA mandates (run by guys that could give a fig about our old cars) have forced the reduction of this in our oil many oil companies have introduced "zddp fortified oils" to deal with this issue---------in a moment of contradiction he even suggested "Brad Penn oil"--------if this is not an issue whats behind that suggestion-------and whats with the dummies at Valvoline and Joe Gibbs making zddp fortified oils??-------are they scammers like me??--------fact is it has been known that this is important for older and or flat tappet cars and high performance cars for decades----------ZddPlus is one solution-------not the only one---------personally I feel that buying discount brand name oil at a local big box store and adding my additive is sensible from a cost as well as a convenience standpoint------except for the lack of adequate zddp the recent ILSAC GF-5 SN oil is the best oil formulation EVER ---------if you want to pay more for similar and it makes you feel good its a free country so have at it--------decades of research have shown that ZddP protection starts to reach an asymptotic level (another one of those big scary words) above the 1600ppm level--------one landmark paper published by the SAE (society of automotive engineers) in 1977 titled "Cam and lifter wear as affected by engine oil zddp concentration and type" covers this subject in great detail----------no damage will will result from too much zddp until it starts to reach the 2000ppm level-------would I add a full dose to VR-1?-----no,valvoline says its about 1300-1400ppm------- but it could benefit by a half dose and so could most of the other "botique" oils especially in a street driven car------- zddp depletes with use and that the greatest rate of depletion occurs in the first thousand miles------true race cars NEVER see 1000 miles on an oil change-------this almost guarantees you are not going to overdose your engine with zddp--------a couple years ago I tested the (20 year old) oil in a brand new Vin-7 long block and it had well over 2000ppm-------GM break in oil or EOS I don't know but thats what it measured--------and remember in used oil you cannot test the effectiveness of the ZddP molecule which is a combination of zinc/phosphorus/sulfur and alcohols--------it is destroyed when it sacrifices itself to protect the rubbing surfaces---------but the elemental levels stay the same--------for those that don't understand chemistry think of this analogy-------analyze the composition of a cow------then run him through a meat grinder and he will still retain the same chemical composition but he aint gonna moo anymore-------this scientific fact is missed by simple oil analysis that uses plasma coupled spectroscopy-------and while i am on this subject here are some of my thoughts--------ZPLUS was one of the first places on the web that anyone could find any real data about zddp content in anything-------we spent thousands of dollars having credible third party tests run and posted the data for everyone to see--------hardly anyone ------even valvoline and joe gibbs actually posted actual zddp numbers until the last couple years-------recently valvoline posted a page showing the discrepency that is typical between consumer labs such as blackstone and a real accredited lab like Southwest--------we did that years ago and finally even posted an entire tech paper on the best way to obtain valid test data in tech brief # 4 "oil and additive testing" on the zddplus.com site----------some more facts------I did not do this because I wanted another business to take up my time-------I did this to protect MY cars and those that know me will attest to that-------in the beginning I gave most of my friends that hang out at my shop free quarts and even gallons of pure zddp to take home for their personal use-------it was only due to the incredible interest that I incorporated this as a business and set up a organized distribution channel-------I did it in such a way that those that put the effort could make a few dollars for their time and trouble-------i have never put a single $ in my pocket from ZPlus------anybody want to see the books feel free to stop by and have a look------last year I paid out in promotions/prizes/sponsorship and event support just over 80K (not counting Garlits fee and Bob Stanleys ZPlus car) and over 30K to non Buick events(not counting the Legendary Flathead Ford Association and the ZPlus ADRL car)--------I currently have $178,608.50 in past due receivables that I dont bug people about because I know the ecomony has them squeezed and I just mailed a check to Holly to pay $1500 for quick 8 at the upcoming Reynolds event--------somebody please show me someone that supports the Buick community like I do and explain how I have motive to scam anyone......................RC
 
a2000rich said:
-------i have never put a single $ in my pocket from zplus------anybody want to see the books feel free to stop by and have a look------last year i paid out in promotions/prizes/sponsorship and event support just over 80k (not counting garlits fee and bob stanleys zplus car) and over 30k to non buick events--------i currently have $178,608.50 in past due receivables that i dont bug people about because i know the ecomony has them squeezed and i just mailed a check to holly to pay $1500 for quick 8 at the upcoming reynolds event--------somebody please show me someone that supports the buick community like i do and explain how i have motive to scam anyone......................rc
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Thank you Mr. Clark for everything you do for the Buick community!
 
Richard truly is one of the "good guys"!! I personally know a LOT of peopel that he helps out on different projects, etc.

As for last night's presentation, I don't know Glen personally, although I buy stuff from him because he's a great vendor, but his in depth technical knowledge, while good, could use some polishing. I was a little put off by his O2 sensor presentation.

Being in the public speaking environement for several decades, I only lasted about 45 minutes into his presentation before I practically went crazy trying to follow it!! If I had to critique his style he probably would never sell to me again!! :eek: Glen just couldn't stay "on point" and tended to wander aimlessly throughout the time I listened. He seemed to get all "wrapped around the axle" trying to differentiate even simple concepts on the different types of O2 sensors and their benefits/shortcomings as an example. I missed the oils/zddp presentation though, probably a good thing I did.





Enough of that. Thanks for the incredibly informative post Richard!!!

Hope you don't mind if I use one of those "botique" oils (Brad Pen) with a little ZDDP added after the oil change. ;)
Although it's probably too late now. I've had a "lifter tick" since last year sometime and started using it what that noise started. Engine is still running perfectly though, and still pulls like a freight train.
 
Dennis Kirban said:
To answer some of the questions posted....


This product has been brought about by Richard Clark who for those not aware of it, owns without any doubt the largest turbo regal collection of parts and cars. (I have first hand knowledge of this since he has been a buyer from us for many years.

This is the same product that is sold by several major mail order companies eastwood, isky, crower, erson, moss motors, year one etc....several major studebaker companies, old ford companies etc...we also sell to honest charley speed shop (one of the oldest in the country)

While oil companies may claim they have zddp or the big long technical wording...that is not the major concern as a owner of a performance flat tappet engine should be concerned with...what you want to know is how many ppm of zddp is in the oil....when our cars were new under SF category it was 1,800 ppm....Brad Penn does not have that much...

You also have to keep in mind, that zddp depletes at a faster rate for the first 1,000 miles you drive.....so its best to start off with 1,800 ppm over say 1,400 or 1,200 ppm....of zddp.

Companies may say they have zinc, but it has to be the molecule zddp...

It really is quite simple....buy any oil you been using and favor....add one bottle of zddp which wil ltreat a 4-6 quart capacity back to 1,800 ppm....every oil change....

the more performance your engine cranks, the higher the extreme pressure points and risk you are taking if you do not add zddp....wear translates into metal shavings...which can be costly to fix when it occurs.



denniskirban@yahoo.com
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From another thread... I always thought it was 1600 -1800 ppm, with VR-1 being around 1300, I would add a bit of the Zplus
 
No denying Mr. Clark's status in the world of Turbo Buicks. I don't think that was the intention. Glen was more so trying to convey how the product can have negative effects if miss-used.

The right words are hard to find when you dealing with a wide range of knowledge. One thing can be taken many different ways. I don't want to make this a big grudge match but rather a civil debate.

It would have been better if the host knew a little something about what was being discussed, thats for sure. Even some basic knowledge of tb's would have made things go better.
 
Glen called Richards product "snake Oil" several times. Not sure how that could be misconstrued.

Glen said all the cam wear problems were because of improper valve springs then late recommended Brad Penn oil to protect your engine with higher levels of ZDDP.

I'd like to see Glen's data to back all this up.

Richards data is all over the internet.
 
ok, i haven't read this thread yet but im going to right after i post this. i knew this was going to be posted it was just a matter of hours. i was listening to Glen last night talk about this and everyone was like WTF.... Then when the host called ZDDP a gemic i was like ouch. anyways cant wait to learn here. i know ZDDP is no gemic and i know Mr. Clark is not selling Zddp for a profit or to scam anyone. I know Mr. Clark wants to help people and keep our vehicles on the road. ok.. without reading i wont post anymore. time to read.
 
ok, just finished reading. Thanks Mr. Clark for the Info

So VR1 and a 1/2 dose of ZDDP.... GOT IT THANK YOU
 
Richard,
People like that are the reason we loose so many vendors:mad:, making statements like that without proper research then people either read those statements and believe it to be the way it is. I'm glad Nick and Richard responded to clarify some of the crap that was slung with out merit

Steve.
 
XXQUICK6XX said:
Richard,
People like that are the reason we loose so many vendors:mad:, making statements like that without proper research then people either read those statements and believe it to be the way it is. I'm glad Nick and Richard responded to clarify some of the crap that was slung without merit. Steve.
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In my thinking, there is a difference between a vendor here, and a salesman.

A vendor is here to help the community in many ways, and hopefully make some profit if possible. Like many other vendors, our objective is to help communicate with tech advise, share our real-world experience, provide information about products, and give guidance within our sphere of expertise.

Nothing wrong with a sales person or company selling products here, but proclaiming malicious statements about a product or person is beyond not being appropriate.

The damage is done, not to the intended person or product, but to the company/person that made the in-appropiate comments which cannot be retracted.

How can someone that truly supports the Buick community prepare and broadcast such comments that are so distorted? :confused:

What else do we have to look forward to with future broadcasts?
 
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