What would you expect to pay?

[6PacktoGo]

If you were going to have a "best possible" 86/87 3.8 turbo engine built, what would you expect to pay? By "best possible" I mean JE pistons, file fit rings, cross drilled and indexed crank, FULLY blueprinted block, all ARP fasteners, Tru Roller, custom flat tappet hydraulic cam, competition port and polish, ground polished and shot peened rods, NEW hi volume front cover, balanced, nothing reused but the bare block, heads, crank, and rods. With or without RJC girdle.

I don't want to argue over the choice of parts, I just want to know what you think it should cost. No B.S. either, just honest answers as to what you would expect to pay for it, fully assembled.

 

[UNGN]

What would we expect to pay or what would we want to pay?

Expecting to pay for something doesn't mean we will unless the price was lower than we expected.

A bullet proof shortblock might be something more people would be willing to buy. That's the area that most of us get screwed on. 90% of us boneheaded 10 thumbs has bolted on a set of heads, some of us can do it in our sleep. Finding somebody that built a short block that will have good oil pressure at hot idle, won't spin a bearing on the third pass, won't leak oil on the driveway and won't cause the crank to exit the motor in the low 11's is something a lot of us would get in line for.

 

[6PacktoGo]

Originally posted by UNGN
What would we expect to pay or what would we want to pay?

Expecting to pay for something doesn't mean we will unless the price was lower than we expected.

A bullet proof shortblock might be something more people would be willing to buy. That's the area that most of us get screwed on. 90% of us boneheaded 10 thumbs has bolted on a set of heads, some of us can do it in our sleep. Finding somebody that built a short block that will have good oil pressure at hot idle, won't spin a bearing on the third pass, won't leak oil on the driveway and won't cause the crank to exit the motor in the low 11's is something a lot of us would get in line for.

I'm sure everyone WANTS to pay $1500 for it.

So, the only time you buy something is if you "think" you're getting it for less than it's worth? Explains why there are so many blown head gaskets and blown bottom ends.

A couple of good rules, learned the hard way:
1. It only costs a nickel more to go first class.
2. You don't ALWAYS get what you pay for, but you rarely if ever get what you DON'T pay for.

Plenty of people bolt on heads, but not many of them seem to get it right. Otherwise, they wouldn't be putting new head gaskets on more often than they change the oil and spark plugs.

I'm not saying YOU don't know what you're doing, but from what I've seen here, there are plenty that don't.

Again, I'm not picking on anyone, I'm just saying I've seen more broke stuff than I should. I've seen quite a few of these engines people paid plenty of money for that aren't much better, if any better, than a Jasper or an Autozone engine.

 

[6PacktoGo]

If you already BOUGHT a "best possible" 3.8

What is in it and what did you pay for it? Do you think it was worth it? Has it held up? Does it run as good as it should?

 

[BUICKTIME]

What would I pay

Well, I think I've been lucky. I paid $780.00 for a rebuilt motor thru Pee Gee Performance five (5) years ago and have not blown a head gasket yet. I did give him the cam (200/200 lunati club cam) and the lifters. He installed new pistons, all gaskets (including the o-ringed 1007 series head gaskets for the champion stock heads). Cut and balanced the crank and rods and of course assembled the motor (long block). I have been 100% pleased with the rebuilt and have over boosted many of times. Never retorqued the heads and gaskets and have held up over 25 lbs. of boost. The best to date time was 11.4's @120mph, pinging almost the entire 1/4 mile track.

MARIO

 

[gnsrule]

Alan, you mentioned an indexd crank. Is that where the journals are ground so each one has the same throw ?? I dont know of anyone whos doing that on a basicly stock r/b. Stock even being w/ JE's and such.
If a standard crank grind goes for around 125 or so(please dont quote me on that, im not a walking price book), whats an indexd crank go for ?? 300 ??
Just wondering.
Ive got around 3200 in my new motor in parts alone. That does not include any EXTRA labor for indexing the crank, or file fitting the rings, or assembly for that matter. Dammm...not for porting the heads either. I have no clue what everyones getting for a compete done motor done right, but i would guess its around 4k-4500. Give or take w/ the options.
Theres 3 ways anything can be done:
Good and Fast wont be Cheap
Good and Cheap wont be Fast
Fast and Cheap wont be Good
Take your pic, this is America...you Can have it your way

 

[Lee Thompson]

block

Alan, I am assuming this is what you feel would be a good eng, and I agree. Do you feel a high volume front cover is necessary?
From the dealings I/ve had with shops locally, most of them either don/t understand the V-6 Buick, or if I tell them what I want, they have the attitude WHAT DOES HE KNOW. Needless to say I feel the same way with some of these so called GOOD shops that I do with these big time Buick venders.

 

[salvageV6]

6K with a girdle and better make some HP for many many many years.

You were talking a streetable motor I hope.

 

[6PacktoGo]

Re: block

Originally posted by Lee Thompson
Alan, I am assuming this is what you feel would be a good eng, and I agree. Do you feel a high volume front cover is necessary?
From the dealings I/ve had with shops locally, most of them either don/t understand the V-6 Buick, or if I tell them what I want, they have the attitude WHAT DOES HE KNOW. Needless to say I feel the same way with some of these so called GOOD shops that I do with these big time Buick venders.

Lee, I have found that opening the clearances up 0.0005" allows a better film strength in the oil, the oil will bear a greater load. If you open the clearances by 0.0005" and crossdrill the crank, the high volume pump will be required (I also add the big filter adapter). Currently, the machine shop I use does EXACTLY what I ask, no attitude and no questions. But machine work like that is NOT cheap.

I have plans to increase my own shop capability in the very near future, adding new equipment.

 

[6PacktoGo]

Originally posted by gnsrule
Alan, you mentioned an indexd crank. Is that where the journals are ground so each one has the same throw ?? I dont know of anyone whos doing that on a basicly stock r/b. Stock even being w/ JE's and such.
If a standard crank grind goes for around 125 or so(please dont quote me on that, im not a walking price book), whats an indexd crank go for ?? 300 ??
Just wondering.
Ive got around 3200 in my new motor in parts alone. That does not include any EXTRA labor for indexing the crank, or file fitting the rings, or assembly for that matter. Dammm...not for porting the heads either. I have no clue what everyones getting for a compete done motor done right, but i would guess its around 4k-4500. Give or take w/ the options.
Theres 3 ways anything can be done:
Good and Fast wont be Cheap
Good and Cheap wont be Fast
Fast and Cheap wont be Good
Take your pic, this is America...you Can have it your way

Yes, indexing a crank assures the same stroke on all journals, as well as all journals being in the proper location. No, most don't do this in their rebuild, they allow tolerances to be what they will. The problem with this is that you can't get the same compression and timing in each cylinder if you don't index. A regular grind is around $100, while an indexed and equalize grind, with crossdrill, which is what I use, is around $270.

 

[6PacktoGo]

Originally posted by salvageV6
6K with a girdle and better make some HP for many many many years.

You were talking a streetable motor I hope.

I am very serious. I have not done an exact quote. It won't be cheap. This is a fully developed and perfected piece, without a single short cut taken.

Yes, I was talking about a serious street engine, with 8.25:1 compression, and a cam in the 214/210 or 218/214 range, on a 112 lobe seperation angle. Should be plenty streetable, with better spooling characteristics than about 99% of the "built" engines.

No one can guarantee an engine like this (not a TRUE no questions asked guarantee), since there is always the guy who will run too much boost, too much timing, and too little fuel.

 

[6PacktoGo]

the only thing I wasn't figuring in

Was a full roller valvetrain. Meaning a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers. That would be an option but would be around $1K by itself.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

ENGINE PRICING???

Alan, I'd expect to see a dyno sheet included w/ an engine that I'm paying hi bucks for.[Relative to home built].
I have another question concerning the poll... Do the prices you show take into consideration the builder supplying the block, crank, rods, heads?. Dyno test? warranty?

Other prices that I've paid around Atlanta are:
Assembled short block $450. [He Screwed it up!! Put std brgs on a .010 crank].
Dyno testing $450. [PS: I have a BRAND NEW dyno harness from Caspers for sale!!] Never used it after he FUBAR'D my short blk.!
Rebuilt heads w/ stock valves and a multi angle valve job. $230

FWIW, IF the crank grinder guy is doing it RIGHT, he should be checking the stroke and index when the crank is put in the grinder. Costs more to do it right??

Put my vote in for "OVER $5000".

DAMN!! And it costs< $4000 for a SBC crate motor that makes 450 RELIABLE HP!!! Whats wrong w/ this picture???


Back to "lovin on my stage 2" [AND crying over my checkbook!!]

 

[Eric Stage I]

I would have no problem paying 4000-4500 for a turbo buick engine done right. Especially if the heads/cam combination was dyno proven, a couple of turbo recommendations, and maybe even a custom chip burned for that engine combo (or fast program).

Not blowing up my engine...priceless.

Eric

 

[6PacktoGo]

Re: ENGINE PRICING???

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
Alan, I'd expect to see a dyno sheet included w/ an engine that I'm paying hi bucks for.[Relative to home built].
I have another question concerning the poll... Do the prices you show take into consideration the builder supplying the block, crank, rods, heads?. Dyno test? warranty?

Other prices that I've paid around Atlanta are:
Assembled short block $450. [He Screwed it up!! Put std brgs on a .010 crank].
Dyno testing $450. [PS: I have a BRAND NEW dyno harness from Caspers for sale!!] Never used it after he FUBAR'D my short blk.!
Rebuilt heads w/ stock valves and a multi angle valve job. $230

FWIW, IF the crank grinder guy is doing it RIGHT, he should be checking the stroke and index when the crank is put in the grinder. Costs more to do it right??

Put my vote in for "OVER $5000".

DAMN!! And it costs< $4000 for a SBC crate motor that makes 450 RELIABLE HP!!! Whats wrong w/ this picture???


Back to "lovin on my stage 2" [AND crying over my checkbook!!]

I was not really thinking about dyno testing, and I was more concerned with what people expect to pay if they carry their production engine to a shop and say "build me the best possible engine based on a stock block."

As far as dyno time goes, I only charge $250 to start an engine on the dyno to break in the cam, check oil pressure, check for leaks and other problems. To break in an engine enough to run a power pull on the dyno takes a while, and dyno time isn't cheap. I will not make a power pull on a tight engine, it ruins them, dynos are hard enough on engines without abuse. If you figure $250 for installation and check run, and $100 an hour for four hours of breakin time, and $200 for an hour of power runs, you hit nearly $1000 for dyno time.

Sure, you do have to set up a crank to grind it, but there is a difference between grinding a crank to get the journals to proper size and finish, and grinding them to correct stroke and timing. Indexing and equalizing also most often requires grinding the crank 0.020", and few people want to pay for the extra setup.

As far as warranty, the "general" policy is "no warranty on speed work", but we know that no reputable shop follows that. It's very hard to explain our policy, let's just say that in 20+ years, very few people have been less than satisfied. If WE screw up, we make it right, period. We ate nearly $50K one year when Comp Cams had problems with their cams. Wasn't our fault, but we fixed it anyway. Even on engines we didn't assemble OR break in. If we did the work and supplied the parts, we made it right. It took three long years to make it up.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Alan,
I wouldn't expect to have every engine dyno'd. Just the first one that you proved the parts combo on. Every engine after that would just be built and shipped, knowing that was the same combination of parts.

Eric

By the way, the ATI converter I bought from you works awesome. I requested 3500 stall, and at 10psi it stalls at exactly 3500. My mph is great, I think it slips only 3% (again awesome).

 

[gnsrule]

Is indexing a good thing to do on our cranks ?? No flame...but makeing the power really doesnt seem to be the problem, It's getting it to stay together, but thats w/ a good tune too. ie: no detonation.
How far off are cranks anyway ?? How much does it effect compression ratio ?? How does it effect other things ?? With the our cranks becomeing scarce as it is, I would be hesitant to cut one just for the sake of haveing it indexed. That would be the last cut for the crank, wouldnt it ??
I would think a good std/std would be the best, but I have yet to build me a Super Stock motor

Craig

 

[salvageV6]

I'd buy one if it was broken in/tested, guaranteed, and streetable.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

DYNO TIME

SURE HOPE my engine/dyno guy doesn't see these posts!! I guess things are cheaper in "HOTLANTA"!!

 

[robh]

I voted over $5k. I know because I just paid for it. After I found a good core for $600 I did exactly what you listed. The short block with the heads with matching springs and valve job came out to $3600+core. Add P/P $800 then I would add another $450 for the girdle and machining that needs to be done. That's over $5k and always climbing and it doesn't even have roller rockers. The arp bolts and nickels & dime stuff are killer. Good luck.