What is the reality of a mid to low 12 second Hot Air?

[Project TNX]

Since my goal is mid to low 12's with a car that hasn't lost it's streetability, I am curious as to how reliable and smooth a 12 second hot air is. With the turbo dumping straight into the plenum, how are these cars with knock, heat soak, driving on a humid day, etc..?? This would keeping it a hot air, no intercooling.

I mean if they can reliably do it, and I accept the fact these cars need constant vigilance on their vaccuum lines and the data, then I don't even see the point of me converting to an 86/87 drivetrain anytime soon, if at all. for us to be into these cars at all shows a "dare to be different" attitude, and sticking with a Hot Air setup kicks that attitude up a notch.

I ask because after I get the rebuild I have to decide if I want to buy the poston headers and crossover, and possibly get a hotter turbo built, and those parts won't convey to an I/C swap, so that would be a lot of money. But if they run as smooth as an 86/87 while runing the same numbers than I may just stay a Hot Air member.

 

[Jerryl]

The reality is that it "can be done".
It is a "steeper grade" to get there with a HA vs a "mechanically IC'd" car, but it can be done. (That is my view anyway)

I am no expert but am sure some of the "been there, done that" experts on this board can chime in and back it up with some time slips. :biggrin:

Edit:
Do a search in this forum on "Fastest".
Quite a few threads with some good nuggets.

 

[boostmaster]

This topic has been covered many times and honestly I can't see why it is resurected over and over again. Can 12's be achieved and keep reliability in a hot air car? Of coarse. There was a time on this board maybe 3-4 yrs ago the hot air forum was full of race oriented car enthusiast many of which had plenty of 12 second times slips under there belt. Now with this new wave of board members the first thing anyone thinks about before making any attempts to make these cars move is slapping an intercooler on it or converting to an 86-87 set up. Not trying to flame anyone but Maybe some of you don't realized that the 84-85 cars are very low production cars and in due time the value may just exceed that of the 86-87 cars which are in a sense plentiful. Now back to the topic at hand the same principles that work for the intercooled cars apply to the hot airs. The only obstacles that will have to be overcome are;

1) passenger side header
2) Downpipe
3) Poor intake design (porting helps extensively)
4) Turbo
5) Little to no vender support

Ported heads will help you get to the 12's with min effort at low boost inop that helps with reliabilty by putting less strain on the turbo and other parts. By far as stated the biggest problem will be finding the parts that you need to support your goals. Many venders have left the 84-85 cars by the way side. You may be able to get some used parts every once and a while by posting in the parts wanted section. A properly tuned/combo'ed Hot air should easily be able to run mid 12's consistantly and low 12's high 11's with more tuning.

 

[Jerryl]

Agree with Boostmaster.
Personally, I will NEVER add an "Air to air " intercooler to my 84. If I wanted one of those IC things, I'd BUY an factory installed IC'd car. So, If my HA would only do 16's without an IC (for example), than so be it. JMHO.

My original reply to the post mentioned the "steeper grade" due to the "lack of" and "very limited availability" of parts. (Not being an expert, I deleted that remark )


Project TNX,
Do some research on your goal. You are halve way there by knowing your goal. All you have to do is "work back from there". Many members have very recently written some nice and extensive summaries about 12 sec HA combo's (Brad_Padget, Racemybuick, etc). First and most of all, enjoy the car! The rest will follow.

Edit:
Forget to mention. You will "most likely" need alky (among a few other goodies).

 

[Project TNX]

This topic has been covered many times and honestly I can't see why it is resurected over and over again. Can 12's be achieved and keep reliability in a hot air car? Of coarse. There was a time on this board maybe 3-4 yrs ago the hot air forum was full of race oriented car enthusiast many of which had plenty of 12 second times slips under there belt. Now with this new wave of board members the first thing anyone thinks about before making any attempts to make these cars move is slapping an intercooler on it or converting to an 86-87 set up. Not trying to flame anyone but Maybe some of you don't realized that the 84-85 cars are very low production cars and in due time the value may just exceed that of the 86-87 cars which are in a sense plentiful. Now back to the topic at hand the same principles that work for the intercooled cars apply to the hot airs. The only obstacles that will have to be overcome are;

1) passenger side header
2) Downpipe
3) Poor intake design (porting helps extensively)
4) Turbo
5) Little to no vender support

Ported heads will help you get to the 12's with min effort at low boost inop that helps with reliabilty by putting less strain on the turbo and other parts. By far as stated the biggest problem will be finding the parts that you need to support your goals. Many venders have left the 84-85 cars by the way side. You may be able to get some used parts every once and a while by posting in the parts wanted section. A properly tuned/combo'ed Hot air should easily be able to run mid 12's consistantly and low 12's high 11's with more tuning.

Uhh, you have exactly 2 pages in this forum subsection to read through, and I didn't see it addressed.

My question isn't about price or mods even, it's about whether a 12 second Hot Air car can be run as a 12 second Hot Air car year round, with a nice reliability factor. 84/85, 86/87, turbo'd or N/A, the same science applies, I just want to know if a car dumping 200* air straight into the plenum can hold up with minimal maintenance.

 

[boostmaster]

Agree with Boostmaster.
My original reply to the post mentioned the "steeper grade" due to the "lack of" and "very limited availability" of parts. (Not being an expert, I deleted that remark )

Why the lack of hot air parts? Supply and demand #1 lack of hot air enthusiast. Most hot air owners buy there car thinking it is the exact same set up as the 86-87's (I know I did). And when they find out differently or get the negative feedback from some of the 86-87 guys who have never had a hot air botta bang, botta boom ready to convert over. My first 2 turbo Buicks were hot airs gott'em cheap thanks to some of you less enthused guys. 1 was stolen 2 months later got another one. Also have 1 86 car on the back burner I know I can make it run but it's fun seeing some of those intercooled guys face when I smoke em raise my hood to make an adjustment and they see the turbo in the back.

 

[boostmaster]

Uhh, you have exactly 2 pages in this forum subsection to read through, and I didn't see it addressed.

My question isn't about price or mods even, it's about whether a 12 second Hot Air car can be run as a 12 second Hot Air car year round, with a nice reliability factor. 84/85, 86/87, turbo'd or N/A, the same science applies, I just want to know if a car dumping 200* air straight into the plenum can hold up with minimal maintenance.

Drive mine anytime anywhere with ac on in the summer. As a matter of fact before I got smart enough to know better (actually some body warned me about doing this) I used to drive my car to work, get off from work, drive to the track, race and back home 250 miles total. Sometimes after running the car hardddd all night. Now if that is not reliable I don't know what is. At the time my car was a daily driver.

 

[Jerryl]

Project TNX;
Please understand that no one (I think I can speak for others) is trying to degrade or discourage you from this project. “We”, the HA folk get “slammed” all the time by the IC’d crowd with; “You should just add an intercooler”. I think it is out of ignorance towards the HA’s. Some of the folk are just tired of hearing the comments, even though they have time slips to back it up. I am certain you have gotten no respect from some of these IC'd crowd for starting a HA project.

Since “we” are all underdogs, we all have a vested interest in seeing other succeed, without an “Air to Air IC”.

Some of the experts have pushed the TA33 in the low 12's, and while there is a BIG difference between 12.999 and 12.000, it is the avaialbility of bolt on parts (Compared to the IC market) that limits us. Your goal of 12's is therefore VERY realistic.

I wish you the very best with your project and am pulling for you to get into an “easy 12’s” or even 11’s. Hopefully you get your car running the way it needs to a LOT easier than myself. (And I mean that sincerely.)

Boostmaster,
In regards to HA parts, let me clarify: Performance HA parts.
Many will agree that two of the main constraints to a HA are the availability of a significantly "larger than TA33" and integral WG DP. I am sure you agree that these are some of the key ingredients in pushing the limits of the HA's. There are some other parts that are available but the "demand" limits the supply chain, which in turn increases the cost of the associated part(s).




Edit:
There you have it, another "book"

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

PROJECTTNX. You absolutly can make a hot air go into the low twelves. I am capable of doing it now by simply adding sticky tires and turning up the boost from 20lbs to 24lbs on 93 octane. The passenger side header can be bought at Postons. The hardest part to locate is a 2 1/2 inch downpipe. The stock one is 2inches in diameter. I got lucky and found an old one(parts for sale section) that sombody had laying around after he went 86/87. The comment about hot airs going up in value can be verified by my insurance appraisal. I was shocked. Now mine is a pleasure car that has balls and never leaves my sight unless I am at a car show. Let us know if you need any help. Brad

 

[turbo6x2]

I drive mine to car shows all summer long in between drag racing events. I love the fact if I stay out of the boost the car still get 20 mpg around town on race gas. I never run anything but straight 110 in case I want to give it a little boost on the street, then I'm covered. It tends to go through gas a bit more, but still reliable.

It shouldn't be a problem to run 12's and drive on the street and have the car be reliable.

 

[Project TNX]

Hold on to your hat boostmaster...........


I decided to just convert it to an 87 setup now, I pick up the entire package Wednesday. But that doesn't mean I won't have a hot aired car as well, I plan on throwing that setup into something, just don't know what that something is yet.

 

[MoeJr]

Since my goal is mid to low 12's with a car that hasn't lost it's streetability, I am curious as to how reliable and smooth a 12 second hot air is. With the turbo dumping straight into the plenum, how are these cars with knock, heat soak, driving on a humid day, etc..?? This would keeping it a hot air, no intercooling.

I mean if they can reliably do it, and I accept the fact these cars need constant vigilance on their vaccuum lines and the data, then I don't even see the point of me converting to an 86/87 drivetrain anytime soon, if at all. for us to be into these cars at all shows a "dare to be different" attitude, and sticking with a Hot Air setup kicks that attitude up a notch.

I ask because after I get the rebuild I have to decide if I want to buy the poston headers and crossover, and possibly get a hotter turbo built, and those parts won't convey to an I/C swap, so that would be a lot of money. But if they run as smooth as an 86/87 while runing the same numbers than I may just stay a Hot Air member.

TNX I did some playing around on my Perf. Trends Engine analyzer. You are gonna need a good honest 375 hp to achieve your goal. I took a stock hotair engine then started modifying it. Port the heads to flow 200 cfm intake 142 exhaust cfm(give or take a few),TA 33 turbo, CC260 cam,21psi boost with either 114 or 93 and alky, and a bigger TB and port intake, bigger injectors and you would be at ~390 hp with good exhaust and tune with about 17.5 inches of vac at idle. With traction you would be somewhere around 12.3's 110 mph. This engine would idle nicely and be alot of fun. It can be done. Us hotair guys gotta preserve these cars and keep them Hotair.

As a side note my first TR was an 84 WH1(damn I miss that car). I bought it off a customer of our garage. I remember my first ride in it which was about 4 years before I bought it. One night my Dad brought it home from work after giving it a full tune up. My friend and I needed some Kerosene for our heater in the garage. So my Dad and us pile into the T and head out. On the way back my Dad is getting on the highway and just gives it a little gas to merge into traffic and the car starts hazing the tires and this was bone stock( car was a strong stocker). It would haze them on the street going into second gear with only like 5 psi boost(had open rear) . That hooked me on TR's and the hotair cars.

Moe

 

[boostmaster]

Hold on to your hat boostmaster...........


I decided to just convert it to an 87 setup now, I pick up the entire package Wednesday. But that doesn't mean I won't have a hot aired car as well, I plan on throwing that setup into something, just don't know what that something is yet.

Hope to see you at an event one day so I can make wish you never did !!!

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Right on Boostmaster. I just found a three inch downpipe which should arrive soon. The missing link does exist. My plan is to make sure it works and have somebody copy it for all of us. The Razor kit properly set eliminates the need for an intercooler on a hot air. If your goal is below elevens than an intercooler makes sense along with Alky and race gas. Razor kit is a alot cheaper and easier than intercooling a hot air. Check out GNTTYPE.ORG-Intercooling a hot air. This guy is struggling and getting nowhere fast. I am at 20 lbs boost on 93 octane no knock and have not attempted to go higher due to lack of time. My 2 cents. Brad

 

[Project TNX]

Hope to see you at an event one day so I can make wish you never did !!!

As in a race?

You bet, I'd still be happy even if you won.

 

[6SENSE]

As boostmaster has alluded to, this kind of feels like deja vu..again.
My car over the past 4 yrs? has been the most raced TR in this area. Thats along with constant street driving, including going out of town. A couple of those years it was a daily driver (cold AC in the summer). There are plenty of IC cars around here (I have 2 brothers both with IC cars) and IMO my lonely hotair car has been the most dependable for sure especially if you factor in that it was being raced almost every week for awhile along with steady street driving.
My times are with street tires and 93+alky. Full weight, fully loaded w/ ttops, sparetire/jack, tools, etc. "street trim". Stock OE never rebuilt block. I beat on this car and it loved it. Never an ounce of race gas has made it in the tank yet, nor slicks ever mounted on the car.
I have mentioned it time and time again that IMHO I dont see many differences between the 84/85 and the 86/87 cars. It isnt just the IC that the 86/87 cars had over the hotair cars to give that 1.3 seconds or so in the 1/4 from the factory (which isnt very hard at all to narrow that gap). No one seems to mention that the IC cars also had a considerably larger turbo. Ran more boost/psi from the factory on that bigger turbo. Better flowing intake. TB relocated which Im sure helped with the great stock 0-60 #s. There are other minor differences also, but those are definately major contributors to more performance for the 86/87 cars....and only to run a 1-1.5 sec more in the 1/4?
I considered it rather simple to run good #s with my hotair car. My first run (w/ stock turbo) was I think a 14.7 or 14.8. I managed to get the car to 14.0's with just a little more tuning. Then I discovered that my Poston 107t cam was flat. Swapped in another cam and flew through the 13's. That was about 3 yrs ago. Havent really put any money into the car since swapping the cam. First run with new cam was 13.5, no other changes. Dropped it to 13.1~ then ran the 12.80. I went to the track a few months ago after not having been for a long time, + no tuning and ran a 13.1 first run, then back into the 12's. Those who know drag racing know what #s could be achieved with some traction. My recent high 12sec times were with 2.0~ 60fts. Each tenth of a sec drop in the 60ft is approx. 1.5 drop in the 1/4. So we're talking low 12s consistently with the 60fts worked out. Oh, and I gain 23mph from the 1/8 to the 1/4 which compares with mid~11sec? IC cars. Im shooting for consistant mid to low 11's for next year

 

[boostmaster]

Hold on to your hat boostmaster...........


I decided to just convert it to an 87 setup now, I pick up the entire package Wednesday. But that doesn't mean I won't have a hot aired car as well, I plan on throwing that setup into something, just don't know what that something is yet.

Yet another 1 of 5000 + cars has been hacked up. Thanks though it's guys like you that have alowed me to buy my first T Type for 400.00, 2nd for 1800.00 and 3rd for 800.00. Now I got 3 times the fun. Oh yeah still got my 86 car too.

 

[boostmaster]

As in a race?

You bet, I'd still be happy even if you won.

You won't be happy after you went through all that trouble just to get whooped up on by something you already had and could have made faster with alot less dough.

 

[Project TNX]

You won't be happy after you went through all that trouble just to get whooped up on by something you already had and could have made faster with alot less dough.

You're acting like a real A-hole. I have been nothing but nice, civil, and inquisitive about what road I should take to get MY car where I want it to go. Why the hell do you care what I do to my car anyways? I read your pipe dream about the rarity of the hot airs, blah, blah, blah, and I don't care and don't think your premise is grounded in reality. I am building the car I wanted for the last 19 years, I just happen to be starting with a barn yard 84 I saved, not hacked or any other thing. And with that, have a good day.


Thanks to everyone else, you were all helpful, courteous, and respectful.

 

[MoeJr]

TNX you asked about a mid to low 12 second hotair then come here and say oh I am gonna change to 86/87 setup. What kinda response were you expecting? I personally agree with Boostmaster that converting an 84/85 to 86/87 is hacking.

In my opinion if you wanted an IC car you shoulda bought an 86/87 and leave the 84/85's to us guys that aren't lazy or take the easy way out with our cars. Sell the 84 to someone who can appreciate the car and buy yourself an 86/87.