EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Glad you are satisfied Scott
What Do You Think Hp Level Will Be
- Thread starter NJTurbo
- Start date
Glad you are satisfied Scott
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
It really depends on what your goals are and what boost you want to run. Personally I have it stuck in my head that the more boost I run the faster I'm going to break something. Naturally I know this means nothing but I just can't help it, typically I don't like running more than 20 psi of boost even though I know the motors got way more in it.Originally posted by njturbo
Artie are you saying 224/224 Solid is the way to go. Also how many times do you need to adjust the valves. THX
The key is combination and getting air in and out of the motor. Lots of things come into play. I've got really good flowing heads and an aggressive cam in my car. Because of that I can run a smaller turbo, have no spooling problems and still make my goals at low boost. Others will run a smaller cam but run more boost. It's all HP. I like lower boost and smaller turbo's only because it's really consistent. Typically the car runs within hundredths of itself and can easily accommodate a 20 degree temp change. Unfortunately the driver is not that consistent. I need to get me one of those adjustable trans brake buttons. In the beginning of the year I was nice and consistent but then I was dialing in the new motor so the car was not consistent as I was fooling with the program a lot. Now that the motor is all dialed in, I was red lighting by about 20 thousands of a second every time. Lots of things I can do about it but probably the easiest is to get an adjustable button and have it engage a little later so I can build in a delay.
Back to the cam, what are your goals? If you have no problem running higher boost in the 25-30 psi range I'd imagine you can probably go into the high 9's depending on the rest of the combination and the weight of the car. At lower boost I'd imagine you can run low 10's.
I'm really bad about setting my rockers but then again they rarely seem to change much. You probably should check them once a month if you are racing a good bit. You are keeping the engine in top performing shape by doing so. As long as they are not slapping around you're probably not going to break anything but remember, if they are looser than they should be you're not getting the full lift or duration of the cam and also wearing things a little bit and the roller ball and adjuster screw is probably taking a beating.
Honestly, I would have in mind what you want to run, where you are going to run it, your combination as well as what boost level you want to run and then call one of the more reputable builders. They should be able to grind you up a cam that they know works and give you a pretty good idea of what it’ll run with the information you provide.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
You don't have a large turbo. A T-76 is a small turbo for a 4.x stage motor. A large turbo would be an 88. I've got a 76 turbo and at 19 psi of boost on an average day I'll go high 9's but I've got very good heads and a big solid cam. If you are willing to run 22-23 psi of boost I'd think you can go high 9's with a little more cam than you are planning to run. You can always make up the ET in short time or reduced weight. I'm doing granny launches at 12 psi because they are consistent and net low 1.4's with crappy slicks and barely no suspension.
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
He is saying that you have a smaller sized turbo for your motor and you want to run low boost so go a little bigger on the cam!!!
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
Artie,
I don't think an 88(mid frame) is large anymore.
If you are talking 88 large frame to 106 large frame I am with you.
The mid frame 88 is just to common these days.
Travis,
I think Artie wants you to call Duttweiler.
I don't think an 88(mid frame) is large anymore.
If you are talking 88 large frame to 106 large frame I am with you.
The mid frame 88 is just to common these days.
Travis,
I think Artie wants you to call Duttweiler.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
You are correct on that. As I was writing I was thinking, WOW a 102 is a BIG turbo. Guess we need to come up with another classification, Puny (T-70), Tiny (T-76), Small (T-80) Medium (T-88), large (T-102), huge (T-106)... where does it stop!!
Trav, for a stage motor, all cams are pretty much custom ground. You're not going to call up a manufacturer and say you want a Stage II cam. All the good engine builders have their favorite proven grinds for specific combinations. Dutt's got his just like others. If you call them and tell them what you want and your combination they will have the correct cam made for you. I asked Bobby at RPE what kind of cam I had; he said a Comp Cams blank (I think) and smiled. Then he miked it all out and was able to tell me the basic specifications to make me happy. He was doing it to make sure that all the lobes were the same height and not worn. His initial comment was, “does the cam work?” I said, “yes”. He then said “then you have a successful Dutt cam…” J There is a lot that goes into a cam other than lift and duration and they are ground by people way smarter than me. Lots of stuff like overlap and lobe separation has a severe impact on the operation of the cam. The people that did the research and came up with the grinds that work are probably a little secretive about it. People like Dutt will sell you the correct combination.
Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
You are correct on that. As I was writing I was thinking, WOW a 102 is a BIG turbo. Guess we need to come up with another classification, Puny (T-70), Tiny (T-76), Small (T-80) Medium (T-88), large (T-102), huge (T-106)... where does it stop!!
Trav, for a stage motor, all cams are pretty much custom ground. You're not going to call up a manufacturer and say you want a Stage II cam. All the good engine builders have their favorite proven grinds for specific combinations. Dutt's got his just like others. If you call them and tell them what you want and your combination they will have the correct cam made for you. I asked Bobby at RPE what kind of cam I had; he said a Comp Cams blank (I think) and smiled. Then he miked it all out and was able to tell me the basic specifications to make me happy. He was doing it to make sure that all the lobes were the same height and not worn. His initial comment was, “does the cam work?” I said, “yes”. He then said “then you have a successful Dutt cam…” J There is a lot that goes into a cam other than lift and duration and they are ground by people way smarter than me. Lots of stuff like overlap and lobe separation has a severe impact on the operation of the cam. The people that did the research and came up with the grinds that work are probably a little secretive about it. People like Dutt will sell you the correct combination.
Thanks Art.
Yes Billy, I as well as everyone that has ridden in the car are satisfied. You did a wonderful thing : ) I know who to call next time!! Several vendors, including a couple from the list of above, wouldn't give me the time of day AND wouldn't even give me the specs on a cam until I purchased it!! I know who not to call next time too!
Travis, Art answered your questions better than I could have and was dead on about some vendors being secretive about their grinds. My solid is not that much noiser than the hydraulic was. But I always thought my hydraulic was noiser than it should have been. I always assumed it was spring pressure related. Well, when I went to install my solid I found that my lifter bores had been bushed and drilled for a solid, which (I think) was starving the comp 953 hyd rollers I was running???....I only found this out after filling the front cam journal oiling groove....So needless to say I had some fun scraping epoxy out : ) Check your block to see if the lifter bores have been bushed...IMO you won't be dissapointed with the 224/224 solid with your combo...Ask Rob C about the solid vs hyd. He's the one that convinced me to go solid. Good luck
Travis, Art answered your questions better than I could have and was dead on about some vendors being secretive about their grinds. My solid is not that much noiser than the hydraulic was. But I always thought my hydraulic was noiser than it should have been. I always assumed it was spring pressure related. Well, when I went to install my solid I found that my lifter bores had been bushed and drilled for a solid, which (I think) was starving the comp 953 hyd rollers I was running???....I only found this out after filling the front cam journal oiling groove....So needless to say I had some fun scraping epoxy out : ) Check your block to see if the lifter bores have been bushed...IMO you won't be dissapointed with the 224/224 solid with your combo...Ask Rob C about the solid vs hyd. He's the one that convinced me to go solid. Good luck
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
Always here to pontificate… JOriginally posted by njturbo
Thanks Art.
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
AWWW SHUCKS Scott....... gives me that warm fuzzy feeling......Hey T all I can say is listen to the guys that have done it........
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Let me add my 2 cents in here from observing our trials and tribulations.
Dad used your combo and it wont make the kind of power you are looking for. That 224 cam did not put out any more than 600 hp ( dont remember exactly) to the wheels. That was with a 72 turbo.
I have come to the conclusion that if you want 9s you need to spin the motor to 7500 to 8000 rpms. You also need to use a 400 trans with a brake. It is the only thing that will be reliable. Mind you reliable in a Buick means it .should last you a year without needing to be rebuilt.
If you want to run 9s on low boost ( whatever that is anymore ) a 76 wont do it. Not on 20 psi or in that range.
We just finished dynoing a motor with Stage 2 heads. The 74 bb turbo was all done at 24 psi. An 80 or better will do what you are looking for.
The guy I want to talk to about cams is Lonnie Diers. He is using a 244 cam ( dont know all the details but I will find out) which I thought was too big but that motor runs 9.70s I think.
Our newest idea is to spin the motor to 7500 rpms, use the 74 and see what it does. Now this one has M&A heads on it but I dont think that will make any difference. The cam is what is going to make the difference.
Hope this helps
Dad used your combo and it wont make the kind of power you are looking for. That 224 cam did not put out any more than 600 hp ( dont remember exactly) to the wheels. That was with a 72 turbo.
I have come to the conclusion that if you want 9s you need to spin the motor to 7500 to 8000 rpms. You also need to use a 400 trans with a brake. It is the only thing that will be reliable. Mind you reliable in a Buick means it .should last you a year without needing to be rebuilt.
If you want to run 9s on low boost ( whatever that is anymore ) a 76 wont do it. Not on 20 psi or in that range.
We just finished dynoing a motor with Stage 2 heads. The 74 bb turbo was all done at 24 psi. An 80 or better will do what you are looking for.
The guy I want to talk to about cams is Lonnie Diers. He is using a 244 cam ( dont know all the details but I will find out) which I thought was too big but that motor runs 9.70s I think.
Our newest idea is to spin the motor to 7500 rpms, use the 74 and see what it does. Now this one has M&A heads on it but I dont think that will make any difference. The cam is what is going to make the difference.
Hope this helps
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
You don't need to spin it high, run lots of boost or have a big turbo. Typically when I'm bracket racing and running 9.8's I'll run 19-psi of boost and have the shift light set for 6000 RPM's. My lazy butt doesn't end up shifting into 2nd until about 6300 and the 2-3 is usually at about 6200 and I go through the traps at about 6200 RPM's at about 138-139. Car weighs 3650 with me in it, no fiberglass. My short times are about 1.40-1.45 with 29.5" x 10.5” high tires and 3:73 gears. I think it's all combination, I have a fairly large cam and good flowing stage II heads that make up for the smaller turbo and the gears allow me to run lower RPM's. Extreme weather has something to do with it too. When I ran my 9.601 at 23-psi of boost (highest I have ever run, crept from-21-psi of boost to 23 in 3rd gear) it was 88 degrees. 3 weeks ago I was running 9.62’s all day long at 20.5-psi of boost (about 19 most of the run but crept to 20.5 in 3rd gear) but it was below 40 degrees out.
That’s the point, it’s all combination. It’s like a triangle, turbo, cam and heads. When one is smaller the other 2 have to make up the difference. That’s why I suggest calling someone who knows and has done it.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
I can't solve the illusive "square circle" problem of the ages but suspect the answer is 42.Originally posted by Buicksx2
>>>> Oh Artie you are so smart..............what don't you know?
Travis:
The car will scare you on the street, you won't get on it more than once, that won't matter what cam you end up running. Demonstration rides will probably stop too. I don't offer them myself anymore.
I would go with the 224 or 230 solid roller, you won't regret it.
If you do drive it a little on the street, it isn't a big deal.
Look at the times the TSM guys are running, these aren't with big cams. Take into consideration installed spring height on your heads, only so much spring you can get in there.
The car will scare you on the street, you won't get on it more than once, that won't matter what cam you end up running. Demonstration rides will probably stop too. I don't offer them myself anymore.
I would go with the 224 or 230 solid roller, you won't regret it.
If you do drive it a little on the street, it isn't a big deal.
Look at the times the TSM guys are running, these aren't with big cams. Take into consideration installed spring height on your heads, only so much spring you can get in there.
Maybe i will step up to a 230 solid. Started this project thinking i was going to be able to go to WAWA for coffee and i have since scraped that idea. This will be a race car, again i can beat on the Wife's T for some street fun.
Ted with a 230 or 224 am i in the ballpark on a T76.
Ted with a 230 or 224 am i in the ballpark on a T76.
You really don't need 8000 rpm to run 9's. I only needed 6800 to 7000. Granted the car is 3350, but it went 9.33, 146, with an Innovative GT80bb at 28 psi.
To give you an idea on the boost differences between a Champion headed car and a Stage II headed car. The turbo on my car now, made 30 psi with a wastegate in the crossover wide open along with the vacuum block loosened up to bleed off boost. On a real efficent stage II headed car the exact same turbo was only able to make 28-29 psi with the wastegate locked closed.
The boost we all talk about is the air the motor isn't able to take in and blow out.
The more boost you can run the bigger the cam will act. The cam in my car will only pull to 7000 rpm at under 28 psi. At 35 psi the motor went right to 7500 rpm.
Travis - who's building your motor ? That's the guy you really need to be talking to.
To give you an idea on the boost differences between a Champion headed car and a Stage II headed car. The turbo on my car now, made 30 psi with a wastegate in the crossover wide open along with the vacuum block loosened up to bleed off boost. On a real efficent stage II headed car the exact same turbo was only able to make 28-29 psi with the wastegate locked closed.
The boost we all talk about is the air the motor isn't able to take in and blow out.
The more boost you can run the bigger the cam will act. The cam in my car will only pull to 7000 rpm at under 28 psi. At 35 psi the motor went right to 7500 rpm.
Travis - who's building your motor ? That's the guy you really need to be talking to.
