Well guys we took the plunge, three of us just bought in to the idea of Pro-efi
- Thread starter WIKEDV6
- Start date
Boostdeznuts
TURBO PART WHORE
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
Yeah 3 I would sell my XFI and bought ProEFI. He said because Buick is old school. If I have a new Canaros it would be around 3 to 4 thousand.
I got around 3400 in my whole setup, I will be installing the sensors and ECU ( anyone can do this) Once that's done, it will be another $1000 to tie all the sensors into the system, fire up and dyno tune. So 4500 complete with the tune! or lets say 5K with the tune! So I don't know where this 7K is coming from. If add the cost for an XFI, Coil over plug, 4l80e controller, boost controller, traction control and flex fuel control, you will be way over that plus the cost of tune on top of that.
HTH
Prasad
Boostdeznuts
TURBO PART WHORE
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2008
I guess when he qoute me $7000 he's on some kind of crack lol.
I have avoided making comments and didn't want to take anything away from the OP, but some comparisons keep getting brought up that I must clarify.
IMO: $5000 is REAL steep considering most of the Buick owners don't use all those options and run the stock ignition. Are you forced to run CNP with this ecu? Does it use the factory crank, cam, and other sensors? Boost control and flex fuel control are already incorporated in the $1900 xfi complete plug and play (car can quickly be returned back to stock) package at no additional cost. Every XFI purchased from me comes pre-programmed with a custom start up tune and FREE tech support for the entire time you own it.
If a customer wants to run a distributor, the XFI plug and play harness is only $75 plus ignition components.
If a customer wants to run CNP it is $1400 INCLUDING brand new GM Coils, brackets, plug wires, etc.. and is 100% plug & play. If they have coils, brackets, wires, it's under $1000
If a customer wants to run a 4L80 transmission the controller is $618
The ProEFI traction control appears to be geared more for street use (comparing wheel speed sensors), where the XFI is geared for track use. If a customer wants to run ITC that it's a $400 option.
So IF a customer wants to run flex fuel, boost control, CNP, traction control, a 4L80E transmission the XFI cost would be $1900+$1400+$618+$400=$4318 before any package pricing discounts. It would be under $4000 if they already have a MAP sensor, coils, brackets, etc..
The holley has some nice safety systems in the boost control, but I don;t like the interface compared to the XFI, its not as "cozy". I don;t like the pro EFI software either for the same reason.
Its all what you are used to. I never liked the xfi compared to the dfi...but I always had dfi on my car. Installed a few xfi's but never warmed up to it compared to the dfi. Now the Holley took me a couple times and I quickly fell in love with the layout.
I've been in the pits watching a local tuner get a outlaw x275 car ironed out at the track the last couple months. They got rid of his boost controller and are using the Holley built in one. Lots of cool options.
I've been in the pits watching a local tuner get a outlaw x275 car ironed out at the track the last couple months. They got rid of his boost controller and are using the Holley built in one. Lots of cool options.
I don't mean to come off in any "advertising" manner here but I can answer these questions and was asked to do so.
Yes the ProEFI uses the factory crank, cam, and other sensors
If a customer wants to run a distributor, it just needs to be wired up. No additional parts need to be purchased from ProEFI.
If a customer wants coil-on-plug, there's just the cost of the coil packs themselves and however they choose to be mounted. No additional parts need to be purchased from ProEFI.
ProEFI Traction Control is completely free and built-in without any additional purchase to "unlock" features.
ProEFI Traction Control can be setup for a number of people. Most of the cars that leave our shop are street cars which is why the TC is set up for street use. There are plenty of race cars running this system that use an entirely different manner to manage traction called Launch Control which can be operated off of engine rage of acceleration, wheel speed differential, and many other strategies. There are 6-second drag radial cars running on this system so race cars work just fine.
Flex Fuel features yet again are all built in and only require the addition of the sensor. With the Flex Fuel setup, you get the failsafe built in that limits boost by ethanol content. The same goes for all other features like Fuel Pressure Compensation (variety of strategies to accommodate for any lean condition based on fuel pressure which is very common in the boosted world).
4L80E or any automatic transmission controls are all again built into the ProEFI with no additional components to be purchased from ProEFI.
Lastly, no systems cost $5000. For obvious reasons, I can't get into pricing here but I will say that after everything is installed and tuned, it will approach that dollar amount. The systems themselves are much less expensive.
Obviously there's a recurring theme that there are no features that must be unlocked (save only for V12 applications where the firmware is different) at a nominal fee. All features are readily available in the system, bar none. The most you have to buy for a particular feature is a sensor to monitor it. The other recurring theme you'll see with ProEFI is integration. There's no external boost controller, transmission controller, fuel pressure monitoring, oil pressure monitoring, flex fuel, nitrous control, traction control, gauges, etc. needed with the ProEFI. It's all built into one, all inclusive system that communicates constantly with itself.
Is it the cheapest system? Absolutely not.
Is it on the top-tier as far as quality and functionality goes? Definitely.
Again, I don't mean to make any advertisements at all. I just mean to answer some of these questions.
Reid
I certainly wasn't trying to take anything away from this system. I only posted because Prasad said "If add the cost for an XFI, Coil over plug, 4l80e controller, boost controller, traction control and flex fuel control, you will be way over that ($5000) plus the cost of tune on top of that." He also mentioned it being "the best bang for his buck"
You didn't mention, will Pro EFI run the factory CCCI ignition?
When I mention purchasing the harnesses for the XFI, it's just because they are plug & play and the car can be returned to stock. Not a requirement. If you wanted to re-pin your stock harness you can get into an XFI w/boost control and flex fuel for around $1650 and only have to pay for the additional options you need. Other than the WBO2, I can have an XFI with an adaptor harness installed and running in about an hour. Heck, I used to install and tune them at the Nationals.
Rather than making comparisons, I'll step out and hopefully the thread will get back on track about how happy the 3 guys are with their purchase
You didn't mention, will Pro EFI run the factory CCCI ignition?
When I mention purchasing the harnesses for the XFI, it's just because they are plug & play and the car can be returned to stock. Not a requirement. If you wanted to re-pin your stock harness you can get into an XFI w/boost control and flex fuel for around $1650 and only have to pay for the additional options you need. Other than the WBO2, I can have an XFI with an adaptor harness installed and running in about an hour. Heck, I used to install and tune them at the Nationals.
Rather than making comparisons, I'll step out and hopefully the thread will get back on track about how happy the 3 guys are with their purchase
GetOwnedVette
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
Hi Cal, Yes you can run the stock ignition although it would require an ignitor to do so (around $180). Although for as inexpensive as you can buy LS1 coils for now, I usually suggest coil on plug.
Because of all the additional sensors that most people add tot he ProEFI it makes it pretty much impossible to be a true plug and play system. The car simply does not have a fuel pressure sensor, flex fuel sensor, exhaust back pressure sensor, oil pressure, etc from the factory so you need to add those if you choose them and wire them in. I think that what Prasad meant for the best bang for the buck is that when you think about everything that comes built into the ProEFI ecu, it is clearly the best bang for the buck. However if you just want to simply run the motor and not utilize all of the cool features then it is probably not.
All of that being said, there really is not anything that the ProEFI cannot do. For example just a few months ago we were talking about paddle shifting an automatic transmission so Jason wrote the code and now with just the addition of the paddles you have it!! The new rolling antilag is really cool too! But the thing that sets ProEFI apart from the rest is all of the safety features designed to save your motor. Simply the best!
If anyone has any questions about ProEFI I would be happy to answer them.
Larry
SP
First and foremost I want to say to Cal that I really appreciate what you do for our small Buick community, I do have a great deal of respect for you for the fact that; you have gone out of your way to help many others in the Buick community. Now that being said if something new and better that comes out in the market that’s better than the product you sell and support, I am not scared to point it out to my friends.
Answer to few of your questions, I think Pro efi can use the stock GN ignition system but who wants to go and keep buying coils and Modules all the time. I have box full of them. You yourself sell and promote the coil over plug system as better ignition system over stock. Unlike XFI there no additional cost other than coil and brackets which cost me 90 dollars. XFI its about another $1,000.00
Yes, this is a plug in play system and I can switch the car back to stock ECM in matter of 15-20 mins. There are no splicing or cutting. We have the plug and play harness. Pro efi uses GM sensors so you can use all of your sensors like coolant , IAT and so on.
Ok, let’s get to the bottom of this. Before I/we were committed to Pro efi, I called XFI dealers including Hartline performance and spoke with Holly, she gave me pricing all the items I was looking for in a system. By the time I added up everything it was well over 5K.It was not a package deal but how much discount can one give? The other XFI vendors were in the same range so I looked into other alternative. As of right now, XFI is behind its time, especially when it get compared to Pro efi from and all the information I gathered about both of the systems. Maybe you can enlighten me about some of the information I may have wrong.
1) Can XFI ECU alone control all of my requirements like 4L80E, traction Control, Flex fuel, boost? I think the answer is NO but Pro Efi can.
2) Does the XFI have the capability of correcting, Fuel, timing and Boost based on the Ethanol content? I think the Answer is NO but Pro efi can.
3) Does XFI have a failsafe system to avoid going into full power if your coolant, oil pressure , fuel pressure or any other sensor you want to use as a reference that goes out of minimum or maximum operating range ? I think the answer is NO but Pro-efi can.
4) Does XFI use a true VE table like the Pro efi or does it just use a look up table? I think we know the answer to that.
5) Can XFI start your car With E70 in cold ( lets say 2 degrees out side, yes we are in the Midwest) without redoing the tune? I think the answer is NO but Pro efi can.
I can go on and on about how much superior Pro efi is compared to XFI at this stage. It’s like comparing Apples to Oranges
Ok now let’s compare Apples to Apples
Proefi/ XFI
ECU, O2 sensor & plug and play Harness $ 2280.00/ $ 1900.00
(it does include start up program)
COP Additional cost (customer provides coil/wires & bracket) $0.00/ $1,000.00
4L80E controller Additional cost $0.00 /$ 618.00
Flex fuel Additional cost $250.00 /$ 400.00-600.00
Traction Control Additional cost $0.00/ $250.00
Boost control & solenoid $200.00/ $250.00
So now let's look and see which one is cheaper!
Some of the pricing for XFI supporting units are from other vendors and the price vary. I added more sensors and things to my Pro efi unit to take advantage of the system.
Also the additional $1000 I threw in there was for a full dyno tune as well. Cal you may want to mention the fact that you need to get your 1000 when you come up here to any cars which is rightfully deserving but you didn’t mention that in your pricing like I did. So to make a statement 5K is steep on this post at the same time telling me all the parts I need is going cost me over 5k which doesn’t even include the dyno tune is hypocrisy .
Anyone can give a large amount of discount to make something look cheaper than someone else’s product to make it cheaper.
I am a cheap and frugal person and I made my comment based on these and other comparisons and findings, thus I made the statement best bang for my buck!
Yes, you buy the pig tail harness from Caspers. you need on one for the ECM and module. Send them to SP or Proefi and they will put the pro efi ends on. around 85-100 dollars over at Caspers and 200 or so at Proefi. The O2 is like 130 dollars but I am not sure what brand it is.
HTH
Prasad
I'm not sure why you keep comparing this system to an XFI, rather then let it stand on its own merits. You can convince yourself how much better it is, but for 99% of the Buick community I don't believe it is. Especially from the tech support available. One of the benefits of the XFI is the module approach. If you don't need something, you don't have to pay for it. If you want an accelerometer, EGT module, transmission controller, dash data logger, etc... then you pay for what you want.
1) Can XFI ECU alone control all of my requirements like 4L80E, traction Control, Flex fuel, boost? I think the answer is NO but Pro Efi can.
Yes. It controls everything you mentioned EXCEPT for controlling a 4L80E transmission. 99.9% of the Buick customers don't have that. If they do, THEN you spend the extra $600 dollars for the TCI controller if you don't need it, why pay for it?
2) Does the XFI have the capability of correcting, Fuel, timing and Boost based on the Ethanol content? I think the Answer is NO but Pro efi can.
Yes, it can be done through the thumbwheel switch without ever using a laptop. The XFI even has a built in INTERNAL logger that can be used, I'm not sure if the Pro EFI does?
3) Does XFI have a failsafe system to avoid going into full power if your coolant, oil pressure , fuel pressure or any other sensor you want to use as a reference that goes out of minimum or maximum operating range ? I think the answer is NO but Pro-efi can.
Currently, only to a minor extent, yes. There are some things in the works (including the Scanmaster) that have an output that you could run to the xfi to lower boost, retard timing or even kill the ignition. Much like your guy re-writing software, I am using software now that monitors fuel pressure and temperature and adjust the tune accordingly. Once again, 90% of the Buick guys don't need it.
4) Does XFI use a true VE table like the Pro efi or does it just use a look up table? I think we know the answer to that.
YES. Perhaps you are thinking of the Holley system which is not a true Speed Density system. In fact, the XFI also can be configured to be load indexed, for those customers running extreme altitudes.
5) Can XFI start your car With E70 in cold ( lets say 2 degrees out side, yes we are in the Midwest) without redoing the tune? I think the answer is NO but Pro efi can.
Of course it can.
Ok now let’s compare Apples to Apples
Proefi/ XFI
ECU, O2 sensor & plug and play Harness $ 2280.00/ $ 1900.00
(it does include start up program)
COP Additional cost (customer provides coil/wires & bracket) $0.00/ $1,000.00
The $1000 price is based on my plug and play harness that feeds everything through the factory module plug. If you wanted to wire it yourself, the XIM is only $400 or if you want to rewire the FAST harness add another $200. Once again, the 90% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
4L80E controller Additional cost $0.00 /$ 618.00
Once again, the 99.9% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Flex fuel Additional cost $250.00 /$ 400.00-600.00
Wrong again. The flex fuel option is available on every XFI. The only additional cost is the sensor. Once again, the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Traction Control Additional cost $0.00/ $250.00
The reason XFI charges extra for traction control is because of the arrangement they have made with NHRA. It is one of the very few systems that is legal in NHRA classes where traction control is NOT allowed. I would be surprised if a small company like Pro EFI went through this effort. The traction control box has a different colored case and flashes the external led's to alert an official if the case has been swapped. Speaking of led's, the xfi has 12 diagnostic led's built right onto the case. Once again, the 90% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Boost control & solenoid $200.00/ $250.00
Most of my customers use the factory boost solenoid which is incorporated into the adaptor harness. For those that want a better solenoid, it's $35
So now let's look and see which one is cheaper!
Okay, for 90+% of the Buick guys the XFI is cheaper. If you want everything you listed above, then things become more even. It odd how I have seen pricing as high as $7000 and your price of under $3000. Hard to determine which way things are being spun.
Also the additional $1000 I threw in there was for a full dyno tune as well. Cal you may want to mention the fact that you need to get your 1000 when you come up here to any cars which is rightfully deserving but you didn’t mention that in your pricing like I did. So to make a statement 5K is steep on this post at the same time telling me all the parts I need is going cost me over 5k which doesn’t even include the dyno tune is hypocrisy .
With the adaptive learning features of the XFI and a good start up tune, a dyno tune is not necessary. Some customers elect to have me tune there car to try and get maximum performance out of it. Once again, the 99.9% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it. Even when they elect to have me tune it, I charge $1000/day up to 5 cars NOT $1000/each. They don't have to use me to tune it, the XFI dealer network is huge. In fact, there are probably more XFI dealers in one state than all the Pro EFI dealers in the entire country. There is also a Live Chat network, a tech forum, and a FAST tech line you can call. I also attend nearly every Buick race offering free tech support and tuning. FAST also gives back to the racers with their huge contingency payouts. They even sponsored at the GS Nationals.
It would be nice if this thread would get back on track showing us the cool stuff this system does, rather then trying to compare it to other systems.
1) Can XFI ECU alone control all of my requirements like 4L80E, traction Control, Flex fuel, boost? I think the answer is NO but Pro Efi can.
Yes. It controls everything you mentioned EXCEPT for controlling a 4L80E transmission. 99.9% of the Buick customers don't have that. If they do, THEN you spend the extra $600 dollars for the TCI controller if you don't need it, why pay for it?
2) Does the XFI have the capability of correcting, Fuel, timing and Boost based on the Ethanol content? I think the Answer is NO but Pro efi can.
Yes, it can be done through the thumbwheel switch without ever using a laptop. The XFI even has a built in INTERNAL logger that can be used, I'm not sure if the Pro EFI does?
3) Does XFI have a failsafe system to avoid going into full power if your coolant, oil pressure , fuel pressure or any other sensor you want to use as a reference that goes out of minimum or maximum operating range ? I think the answer is NO but Pro-efi can.
Currently, only to a minor extent, yes. There are some things in the works (including the Scanmaster) that have an output that you could run to the xfi to lower boost, retard timing or even kill the ignition. Much like your guy re-writing software, I am using software now that monitors fuel pressure and temperature and adjust the tune accordingly. Once again, 90% of the Buick guys don't need it.
4) Does XFI use a true VE table like the Pro efi or does it just use a look up table? I think we know the answer to that.
YES. Perhaps you are thinking of the Holley system which is not a true Speed Density system. In fact, the XFI also can be configured to be load indexed, for those customers running extreme altitudes.
5) Can XFI start your car With E70 in cold ( lets say 2 degrees out side, yes we are in the Midwest) without redoing the tune? I think the answer is NO but Pro efi can.
Of course it can.
Ok now let’s compare Apples to Apples
Proefi/ XFI
ECU, O2 sensor & plug and play Harness $ 2280.00/ $ 1900.00
(it does include start up program)
COP Additional cost (customer provides coil/wires & bracket) $0.00/ $1,000.00
The $1000 price is based on my plug and play harness that feeds everything through the factory module plug. If you wanted to wire it yourself, the XIM is only $400 or if you want to rewire the FAST harness add another $200. Once again, the 90% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
4L80E controller Additional cost $0.00 /$ 618.00
Once again, the 99.9% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Flex fuel Additional cost $250.00 /$ 400.00-600.00
Wrong again. The flex fuel option is available on every XFI. The only additional cost is the sensor. Once again, the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Traction Control Additional cost $0.00/ $250.00
The reason XFI charges extra for traction control is because of the arrangement they have made with NHRA. It is one of the very few systems that is legal in NHRA classes where traction control is NOT allowed. I would be surprised if a small company like Pro EFI went through this effort. The traction control box has a different colored case and flashes the external led's to alert an official if the case has been swapped. Speaking of led's, the xfi has 12 diagnostic led's built right onto the case. Once again, the 90% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it.
Boost control & solenoid $200.00/ $250.00
Most of my customers use the factory boost solenoid which is incorporated into the adaptor harness. For those that want a better solenoid, it's $35
So now let's look and see which one is cheaper!
Okay, for 90+% of the Buick guys the XFI is cheaper. If you want everything you listed above, then things become more even. It odd how I have seen pricing as high as $7000 and your price of under $3000. Hard to determine which way things are being spun.
Also the additional $1000 I threw in there was for a full dyno tune as well. Cal you may want to mention the fact that you need to get your 1000 when you come up here to any cars which is rightfully deserving but you didn’t mention that in your pricing like I did. So to make a statement 5K is steep on this post at the same time telling me all the parts I need is going cost me over 5k which doesn’t even include the dyno tune is hypocrisy .
With the adaptive learning features of the XFI and a good start up tune, a dyno tune is not necessary. Some customers elect to have me tune there car to try and get maximum performance out of it. Once again, the 99.9% of the Buick guys that don't need this won't have to pay for it. Even when they elect to have me tune it, I charge $1000/day up to 5 cars NOT $1000/each. They don't have to use me to tune it, the XFI dealer network is huge. In fact, there are probably more XFI dealers in one state than all the Pro EFI dealers in the entire country. There is also a Live Chat network, a tech forum, and a FAST tech line you can call. I also attend nearly every Buick race offering free tech support and tuning. FAST also gives back to the racers with their huge contingency payouts. They even sponsored at the GS Nationals.
It would be nice if this thread would get back on track showing us the cool stuff this system does, rather then trying to compare it to other systems.
SilverBulletGN
GN-M1
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2008
Man Prasad... Looks Like you said most of what I was going to say to Cal.... I would Like to say First that I Love my Buick GN and Ttype brothers and sisters. If Cal would like to really compare the 2 and disclose everything lets do a video.Im ready when you are. I love to tell the truth. And if Im wrong, I admit it. Like I posted in the past, I don't care what system or Chip anybody uses. Its a matter of Preference. All I like to do is Inform our Buick Brothers and sisters of New Options and results from those options. If Someone Can Benefit from the PROEFI unit we installed Great. I Love all the Safety Features Built in. Thats one reason I bought it. I Love the fact that you can use E85 or 93 octane or mix it without having to go changing anything on a laptop or have to move a (whats it called Cal on the XFI, you need to have some type of thump wheel chip. Oh ya thats $80.... With ProEFI no Clicking needed.(OLD Technology. The Only Thing To Move on the ProEFI is The Boost Control knob In less then A second I move the control knob from 13 pounds of Boost to 28 pounds of Boost. Which the Five boost settings rather then being a specific boost it can be staged. Lets say your having a hard time launching your car, you can program your boost controller to gradually climb. When you set it on say setting one on the knob, you'll Launch the car. It will launch as an example at 7pounds of Boost then 1 second into your launch climb to 10 pounds of boost then after 2 seconds climb to 17 pounds of boost.
On My Brothers Stage Car I INSTALLED ALL THE WIRING AND SENSORS MYSELF. (Yes Cal it now has PROEFI and UNLIKE WHAT YOU POSTED PROEFI IS FOR STREET AND TRACK USE. Check this feature out. The PROEFI has 12 Drivers that can control 12 Different injectors (Independently) Some systems cant do that. So On this Stage Motor We might be doing so. Running 2 injectors per Cylinder. We are thinking of Taking advantage of that Feature built into the PRoefi system and Run 80LB injectors for the Street and Have the 160 Lbs Kick on under heavy Boost when Racing.
Cal, You commented you wanted to see how happy we were going to be with this system, and I can tell you because I have it installed. I am very extremely happy And am Proud to represent with my car the Buick Community. You continue to state that most of our Buick community do not use some features that ProEFI Offer. Once they know what it can do for street and racing they will take advantage of it. In other words, once we help each other by educating each other and not try to leave the other guy with the 80's technology things will change. Well now they are not stuck with one system and have Options with a system that can handle it. Its always nice when a New system comes out to again, challenging the mind of the first system.
Well About the only thing Cal said right is Lets Get Back to this Original Post. It's about 3 people that Followed in Turbo Cliffs footsteps and Purchased the PROEFI unit to bring the car to the 21 century and Wanted to share something positive with the Rest of the Buick Brothers and sisters .
On My Brothers Stage Car I INSTALLED ALL THE WIRING AND SENSORS MYSELF. (Yes Cal it now has PROEFI and UNLIKE WHAT YOU POSTED PROEFI IS FOR STREET AND TRACK USE. Check this feature out. The PROEFI has 12 Drivers that can control 12 Different injectors (Independently) Some systems cant do that. So On this Stage Motor We might be doing so. Running 2 injectors per Cylinder. We are thinking of Taking advantage of that Feature built into the PRoefi system and Run 80LB injectors for the Street and Have the 160 Lbs Kick on under heavy Boost when Racing.
Cal, You commented you wanted to see how happy we were going to be with this system, and I can tell you because I have it installed. I am very extremely happy And am Proud to represent with my car the Buick Community. You continue to state that most of our Buick community do not use some features that ProEFI Offer. Once they know what it can do for street and racing they will take advantage of it. In other words, once we help each other by educating each other and not try to leave the other guy with the 80's technology things will change. Well now they are not stuck with one system and have Options with a system that can handle it. Its always nice when a New system comes out to again, challenging the mind of the first system.
Well About the only thing Cal said right is Lets Get Back to this Original Post. It's about 3 people that Followed in Turbo Cliffs footsteps and Purchased the PROEFI unit to bring the car to the 21 century and Wanted to share something positive with the Rest of the Buick Brothers and sisters .
I have not mislead anyone. In fact I tried to stay out of this thread to avoid this type of rhetoric. When some bad information was put out about the XFI, I was inclined to correct it. I answered the questions, apparently you didn't like them and now you have resorted to insulting my reputation and I won't stand for that. Enjoy your new system.
