SFI fuel injection setup for 4.1L

[joedirtmcd3]

Hey all, I was home from Lehigh over break for the past few weeks and while cleaning my father's garage, came across my old plans to change my carb'd 4.1L 252ci motor over to fuel injection. I have what appears to be a pretty complete setup (manifold-wise), but I really have no idea which cars to look in for the remaining parts - including the wiring harness.

I took some pictures of what I've got and I assume to complete the swap I'll need several important things:
-fuel injection style distributor (or some such thing for crank position)
-coilpacks
-engine computer
-wiring harness
-fuel injection high pressure fuel pump
-some type of coolant line hookups or something


So yes, any info on what other parts I will need and what years and models I can find them from would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe

 

[SHADOWII]

Are those ...

f/i manifolds from a front wheel drive car? If so, you could post on the 3800 forum and they may be able to bring you upto speed. But I don't think the fwd set up will work w/the gn v6. But they should be able to tell you more.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

I don't think so

I don't know if these are from FWD cars or not, I really have no information on them other than they guy that sold me one of the manifolds told me he used an Electromotive TEC 3 setup for the fuel injection. Which way do these manifolds even mount? with the opening for the air intake towards the front of the motor or the rear of it?

 

[joedirtmcd3]

GN manifolds

TTT

No ideas then anybody? I guess these aren't anything like the GN manifolds, are they? From pictures I've seen they look similar.

 

[49-blues]

Those are fwd manifolds-basically anything that fits a 3.8 turbo or not should fit a 4.1-the only basic difference is the bore size when comparing a 3.8 & a 4.1. i would stick with gn stuff. i think the fwd stuff had reverse coolant flow on their motors but not 100% sure What will the 4.1 be going into?

 

[joedirtmcd3]

already in

oh it's already in an '84 chevette and the thing hauls ace with a carb and 180hp at the wheels which im told is about 225hp at the flywheel. it also has a nitrous system but i have yet to find out what kind of power gains that is giving. i want to get a little better mileage and I'm going to be adding a procharger instead of turbo due to limited space.

does the opening for the throttle body face the front or rear of the engine?

 

[49-blues]

I have a set of almost brand new catback true dual exhaust and a set of headers if you need them.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

The FWD motors had the wierd waterpump stuff later in the Series motors. Those intakes should be reversable and you can point them either way. The only problem you might run into is clearance between the TB and the accessories if you're running a surpentine.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

the little bit of information I could find about these SFI manifolds says that they were used in 86-88, but I'm not sure in which cars. I think that means that they weren't series motors and instead were the same basic design as the NA carb'd 3.8s. Should I look in Regals or Rivieras or something?

Here's a shot of the car and engine bay

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Series motors are 91+ so no worry there. I've seen that style intake and something that looks like a 1 piece LC2 intake aswell off of FWD cars. I think either one would work just fine as long as you mated the right sensors for the computer you used. There is a distributor using EFI system I've seen on some Riviera motors but I don't know anything about it. I'd stick to the LC2 computer system with the cam sensor and get an NA chip burned.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

where does the LC2 cam sensor go? And also, where can I find one?

 

[CTX-SLPR]

It replaces the distributor. There are ones that you can get from the parts store but thy are of questionable quality. Casper's sells an improved version with an onboard cam setting tool. RJC also sells a repair kit if the drive tang breaks.

 

[usetaboost]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the early fuel injected fwd cars have 8445 heads? If so there shouldn't be any cooling problems there. Lots of questions on this subject and I know some have all the or most the parts to do this. It would be cool if someone would actually give this a shot. If someone could make it work it would be a great/cheap upgrade to the n/a cars. FI fwd was rated at 140 or something like that weren't they?

On the other hand, a 4 door chevette with the IC setup and a FM would be truckin' awesome. Have to tuck that idea away in case my we4 gets hit by one of the many with no license or insurance.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

Well this setup seems like its turning into a much larger thing than I had planned orginally. If I were able to find the necessary camshaft sensor and wiring harness, how much trouble would the engine computer have with my aftermarket camshaft? I didnt really think about this much before, but assuming the duration is significantly different than stock, wouldn't the computer be opening the injectors at the wrong times and essentially spraying either too long or too short? i assume it would be close but not perfect... sound right?

Anyway, the motor supposedly is puttin out around 225hp now and I wouldnt want to go down from that if I don't have a chip or engine computer that works properly. Sorry I have no experience with modifying fuel injected systems - other than the stupid **** I did with my dads beater tercel in high school by wiring in some potentiometers with the temperature sensors.

I say the car has 225hp because I have an GTech Pro (accelerometer) and a feed/grain weigh station nearby my house (30 mins). Early last summer, I went there and found that my car weighed 2450lbs with a few gallons of gas and about 2625 with me in it. I then took it out and did a power test with the accelerometer to find the car had 139hp at the wheels. Several weeks later I had my car Dyno'd at a local shop and my first run put out 141hp at the wheels. I figure that meter was pretty damn close with its 139hp reading.. And the last test done at the Dyno was 151hp, 205ftlbs of torque at the wheels which was all before I thought to adjust the TV cable.

Anyway, my second most recent test was done after adjusting the TV cable properly (which I had never done correctly since I replaced the transmission last) and the only other change was the nitrous bottle which weighs about 25lbs full. So I took the car out for a test with no nitrous and the edelbrock manifold to find that the car had 164 and 169hp at the wheels. Apparently the carb spacer and the TV cable had helped a whole lot.

My most recent test was with the Weiand intake manifold rather than the Edelbrock and the nitrous plate acting as a carb spacer but no nitrous was sprayed. I entered the weight as 2650 to account for the nitrous bottle. I pulled through all the gears only to see 180hp flash on the meter.

This was late at night and my car is of course unregistered and uninsured (unfortunately) but I just had to know. By the way the car isnt unsafe, i just have no money to waste on it while im in college - instead its under a car cover in my driveway. It is inspected tho, haha. I was unable to verify this 180hp reading due to my father calling and asking me where I was with my car...

 

[turbodave231]

You really need to find a 1984 or 1985 Buick Century, Olds Cutlass Sierra or Park Avenue/ Olds 98 with a 3.8 VIN 3 engine. Grab the entire engine management system, wire harness, ECM, intake, distributor, etc. These were FWD engines but share the same heads and shaft style rocker arms as the RWD V6's.

The fuel injection was MFI with a MAF and used an HEI distributor not DIS. The engine used the standard Gear type oil pump not the gerotor pump of the 86-88 Vin 3 or B engines. Everything should be a bolt-on.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

So here's the list I've got going so far, starting from most obvious to least:
-Fuel injection manifold (rail, injectors, sensors, etc.)
-wiring harness
-engine computer
-ignition module
-cam position sensor that will drive my oil pump
-coil packs
-EFI fuel pump
-return fuel line
-O2 sensor(s)??
-some type of reprogramming chip??
-will i need the crankshaft positioning sensor also?
-possibly a knock sensor for reliability reasons
-some kind of weird coolant hose for the bypass connection

man its getting hard to remember every little thing now..
I found a couple of ebay listings for cam position sensors and here's what they look like:

 

[PHILBUILT65]

the manifolds you have the water ports at the oposite end from the throttle body which is at the bell housing end.it would work ok on a fresh air ste up through the cowl. if this was my project i would try a megasquirt n alpha set up cheap and tune able, only needs rpm and throttle sensor inputs.it wont care about the cam profile bank to bank would be fine for a light weight ride like yours.look for a 85 riv or park avenue its port inj with a dist with a built in cam position sensor so you wont need a crank sensor if you pony up the bucks for sequential. call me if you like phil k 9189020139

 

[turbodave231]

Joe,

The 84-85 setup isn't SFI, but the good part is they run awesome and don't require a crank sensor or cam sensor......just the right distributor. This would probably be the easiest swap ever. The stock ECM calibration ought to run very well in your light car too.

You could use any intake/throttle body you want that bolts to the heads, however, Most of the FWD intake manifolds will point the TB toward the firewall. An 86/87 turbo intake would work in a Normally Aspirated application.

 

[joedirtmcd3]

I think I've reached a decision about the manifolds I have now. From what you guys have told me and a few images I have managed to find on CarDomain, these manifold will not work for me.

I'm not sure I follow what you said before... In order to get the coolant to run through the manifold properly, I would have to mount it so the throttle body faces the rear of the engine? I saw in the pictures that this manifold's OEM direction was towards the rear of the engine and that would not work in my 'vette due to clearance issues of the throttle body. If I flipped it 180 then the upper rad. hose would be exiting on the opposite side of the radiator and would require either a new rad. or a longass coolant hose. And that's if it's even possible to reverse it 180.

I guess I wouldnt mind a long radiator hose so long as I could get it to fit, but now I can't stop thinking about using a Grand National intake manifold. Are the intake ports and bolts all the same? I have that spare set of heads so I could have them and a GN intake port matched. Then my stuff would be the exact same as what you run, minus, of course, the turbo. Eventually I want to run a Procharger P1SC at a reasonable boost level...

 

[texasturbo]

You are correct. These intake manifolds will not work on a rear drive application. The coolant will not flow thru the heads correctly...