no2 to spool turbo

After watching your video, is this how you normally spool up?
hit the stall then turn nitrous on?

IF SO, why would you not hit nitrous at the crack of the throttle?
this SHOULD change the flash stll tremendously as well as spool up time

Again, I am just going by the ALS video posted on youtube,not sure if this is your normal procedure
 
Typically, people rate the shot size of a nitrous system by the jet sizes being used. That is how I also rate the system.

The engine does not actually experience the true, full rating of the system due to reasons that I've covered numerous times before.

I once did an in depth study of how much hp the engine actually experiences. The answer is interesting and very complicated.

OK,when "I" rate the dry systems i setup using the XFI i use the recommended jetting to start and dial it into a safe tune and use a
ESTIMATED rating figured off the #s per hour of fuel used to get the tune where I leave it.

A safe 175 jet setting by NOS has netted and actual 200 RWHP after Dialed into my specs. I find this normal as the jetting layed out by many manufacturers is WAY over fueled.
In some cases with WET kits I have actually swapped the and put the bigger fuel jet into the nitrous and the small nitrous jet into fuel side and make a pretty decent gain and still have needed to pull fuel to get my target a/f ratio and plug read
 
Like I said somewhere before, the thing I've always noticed is that Donnie seems to over-think, over-complicate, and over-engineer things but he means well. I have to give it to you that you're always willing to share information and I respect the fact that you definitely think outside of the box. I think what set a lot of the criticism and other BS in motion with you is when you posted the thread about what you called a revolutionary tuning discovery and acted like it was going to change everything. Pretty bold statement. Here's my question for you Donnie.

I know we aren't comparing apples to apples in our engine programs but we do have one thing in common - the 91.5mm turbo. Why does it take a 400 shot to spool yours? You have an extremely complex NOS system compared to mine. I changed transmission setups a couple of months back and have a super tight converter in my car right now - so tight in fact that I can only build about 2psi using the variable-stall and most every other trick I know. I give it 75-100 shot of NOS for just a couple of seconds and it's spooled. My system is simple and crude compared to yours - a simple dry shot through a fan jet nozzzle into the inlet pipe. I let the XFI add a little fuel and pull out a little timing just to be safe and that's IT. I agree 100% about the rating vs size of NOS jets used - it varies from engine to engine but you have to use something as a guideline.
 
After watching your video, is this how you normally spool up?
hit the stall then turn nitrous on?

IF SO, why would you not hit nitrous at the crack of the throttle?
this SHOULD change the flash stll tremendously as well as spool up time

Again, I am just going by the ALS video posted on youtube,not sure if this is your normal procedure

You're correct that when the nitrous hits, the stall will momentarily flash to a higher value. When I say momentarily, I mean a really, really short time period. Tenths of a second, if that long.
The amount of spool up that I need for the launch is much, much higher than the moment where the stall flashes due to the nitrous hit, regardless of how much throttle I use before the hit occurs.
Also, it's safe practice with the use of nitrous to only activate the system at WOT. That pretty much forces you to be on the TC anyway when the hit occurs. I suppose some could experiment with the nitrous activation point in relation to the throttle position, but depending on the turbo/converter combination I don't think it would result in any big advantage over just activating at WOT.

The ALS video shows the car launching with a short period of being on the nitrous before the transbrake releases. This was an interim launch setup that has since changed. I think the engine was in the mid 4000s rpm at the launch. I believe the exact rpm is shown in the video.
The latest launch procedure, which is still in an experimental stage, is with the engine on the nitrous for two full seconds. That is giving me a launch rpm of around 5400 rpm and MAP level of about 154 kPa.
Plans are to add to that time on the nitrous before transbrake release one tenth of a second at a time until I break my 1.28 60' record. Believe me, it's not going to take much more.
 
OK,when "I" rate the dry systems i setup using the XFI i use the recommended jetting to start and dial it into a safe tune and use a
ESTIMATED rating figured off the #s per hour of fuel used to get the tune where I leave it.

A safe 175 jet setting by NOS has netted and actual 200 RWHP after Dialed into my specs. I find this normal as the jetting layed out by many manufacturers is WAY over fueled.
In some cases with WET kits I have actually swapped the and put the bigger fuel jet into the nitrous and the small nitrous jet into fuel side and make a pretty decent gain and still have needed to pull fuel to get my target a/f ratio and plug read
Jetting for a nitrous hit with methanol is complicated. Again, I have already covered that numberous times. I still don't understand all the consequences of the wider array of mixture settings with a nitrous/methanol mix.
I will say this. I've stumbled across a mixture that works beyond my wildest dreams. I can use it against the transbrake for 2 seconds and possibly beyond that with relatively little thermal loading to the engine. I have no reason at this point to tempt fate and I'm going to stick to the present scheme for the duration of my testing to come up with a workable pro light launch routine.
 
I have found that on some cars having a "flash" stall raised only a few hundred rpm changes spoolup time by seconds.
with that being said I would think whatever your flash stall is with out nitrous taht it would add a minimum of 400-500 RPM with a nitrous hit that size.
I certainly would not wait until it basiclly settled out before switching it on.
Rule of thumb is not before WOT,I normally trigger big systems at 3/4 throttle but you would obviously be smashing the throttle so it would be WOT in a split moment at slowest.
I bet if you tired this you would find it spool quite a bit quicker than triggering it after it hits flash stall and it would have no ill effect
on anything.
 
Like I said somewhere before, the thing I've always noticed is that Donnie seems to over-think, over-complicate, and over-engineer things but he means well. I have to give it to you that you're always willing to share information and I respect the fact that you definitely think outside of the box. I think what set a lot of the criticism and other BS in motion with you is when you posted the thread about what you called a revolutionary tuning discovery and acted like it was going to change everything. Pretty bold statement. Here's my question for you Donnie.

I know we aren't comparing apples to apples in our engine programs but we do have one thing in common - the 91.5mm turbo. Why does it take a 400 shot to spool yours? You have an extremely complex NOS system compared to mine. I changed transmission setups a couple of months back and have a super tight converter in my car right now - so tight in fact that I can only build about 2psi using the variable-stall and most every other trick I know. I give it 75-100 shot of NOS for just a couple of seconds and it's spooled. My system is simple and crude compared to yours - a simple dry shot through a fan jet nozzzle into the inlet pipe. I let the XFI add a little fuel and pull out a little timing just to be safe and that's IT. I agree 100% about the rating vs size of NOS jets used - it varies from engine to engine but you have to use something as a guideline.
The difference between our two systems is very simple. Your system is paired with gasoline. My system is paired with methanol.
Some may have the question in their mind, well if you can get away with a smaller rated system with gasoline, why are you using methanol?

Again, the answer is simple, and I've discussed this many times before. The top items on the list for my project were that I would use methanol fuel and nitrous oxide. If I were to use gasoline with the nitrous, I would have to add a complete separate fuel system just to feed the nitrous system. I felt it was much simpler and less expensive to pair the nitrous system with the fuel system that was already going to be on the car. I don't really consider that to be over thinking or over engineering the project. If I had added a complete second fuel system to the car just to supply the nitrous system, then that is what I would have considered over engineering.

Besides, there was very little knowledge out there where it came to the use of nitrous with methanol, and I was curious. I am anything but sorry that I went with the methanol. There are some benefits to it over gasoline that I've explained already in other threads.
 
The difference between our two systems is very simple. Your system is paired with gasoline. My system is paired with methanol.
Some may have the question in their mind, well if you can get away with a smaller rated system with gasoline, why are you using methanol?

Again, the answer is simple, and I've discussed this many times before. The top items on the list for my project were that I would use methanol fuel and nitrous oxide. If I were to use gasoline with the nitrous, I would have to add a complete separate fuel system just to feed the nitrous system. I felt it was much simpler and less expensive to pair the nitrous system with the fuel system that was already going to be on the car. I don't really consider that to be over thinking or over engineering the project. If I had added a complete second fuel system to the car just to supply the nitrous system, then that is what I would have considered over engineering.

Besides, there was very little knowledge out there where it came to the use of nitrous with methanol, and I was curious. I am anything but sorry that I went with the methanol. There are some benefits to it over gasoline that I've explained already in other threads.

Don't take the over-engineered/thinking comments as an insult - I respect the fact you think outside of the box. I haven't read all your other threads. So you're saying it takes a bigger shot of nitrous when used in conjunction with methanol? I've played with alky on some other stuff years ago but never with nitrous.

Why do you say you would have to run a separate fuel system if you were on gasoline? Why not just use something simple like my dry system? Unless you were just dead set from the beginning on using a big wet nitrous system for some reason. Just seems like you've got a BIG nitrous system just to spool the turbo. Did you just set out from the start for the WOW factor of running three power adders in unison - alcohol, nitrous, and a big turbo? I've thought about spraying mine all the way down for the intercooling effect but I suppose that's not a concern with yours and the methanol.
 
I have found that on some cars having a "flash" stall raised only a few hundred rpm changes spoolup time by seconds.
with that being said I would think whatever your flash stall is with out nitrous taht it would add a minimum of 400-500 RPM with a nitrous hit that size.
I certainly would not wait until it basiclly settled out before switching it on.
Rule of thumb is not before WOT,I normally trigger big systems at 3/4 throttle but you would obviously be smashing the throttle so it would be WOT in a split moment at slowest.
I bet if you tired this you would find it spool quite a bit quicker than triggering it after it hits flash stall and it would have no ill effect
on anything.
I think you're not taking into consideration the unique spooling problem that I have with this small cube/large turbine wheel and housing combination. I don't think that the problem is so much the TC any longer as it is the size of my turbine wheel and turbine housing in relation to my engine cid.

There are signs now starting to crop up that the stall of the TC I'm presently using may be a little too loose. When the nitrous hits, the rpm flashes to about 4600 rpm and settles at around 4400 - 4500 rpm. The same sort of rpm drop that you seem to also experience. The thing is, if I were to loosen the TC even 600 rpm for this particular point in the power curve, it still wouldn't be enough for the launch I'm searching for, and would certainly be way too loose at other points in the power curve throughout the run. I'm already seeing a little more slippage on the top end than I really like to see.
After the stall has settled on the 4400-4500 rpm, it begins to rise as the turbo begins to spool up. The rise starts out slowly, but quickly gains momentum. Particularly with the AB added. The AB appears to be very effective. Even more than the ALS I stumbled on.
From the beginning of the hit to the two second time frame, the rpm has reached around 5400 and the map is at 154+ kPa. This is the point that I'm presently experimenting with for the launch. The rate of climb of both the rpm and map are still on a very steep climb at that point. There is no sign that either is nosing over.
I've done rack testing where the nitrous was left on the transbrake long enough to see 5900 rpm + and map above 172 kPa. The kPa could have been even higher. I'm just going by memory here. This is only slightly longer than the two second time frame. Again, neither the rpm or the map rate of climb were showing signs of nosing over. Hence my suspicion that the TC could be too loose.

The stall of a TC is always going to be relative to the amount of torque applied to it.
 
Don't take the over-engineered/thinking comments as an insult - I respect the fact you think outside of the box. I haven't read all your other threads. So you're saying it takes a bigger shot of nitrous when used in conjunction with methanol? I've played with alky on some other stuff years ago but never with nitrous.

Why do you say you would have to run a separate fuel system if you were on gasoline? Why not just use something simple like my dry system? Unless you were just dead set from the beginning on using a big wet nitrous system for some reason. Just seems like you've got a BIG nitrous system just to spool the turbo. Did you just set out from the start for the WOW factor of running three power adders in unison - alcohol, nitrous, and a big turbo? I've thought about spraying mine all the way down for the intercooling effect but I suppose that's not a concern with yours and the methanol.
The nitrous/methanol combination does net a different hp level than a nitrous/gasoline combination. Like I stated, the amount of hp the engine actually sees from a nitrous/methanol system is very complicated. The details of which is one of those studies I went through that took a lot of time and I would rather keep to myself. Yes, even I would rather keep some tuning secrets to myself.

You're not thinking your question through about the dry system thing.

I did plan from the start to use a wet port injected system. It's the safest way to go with a nitrous system. There is no argument there. Especially when it became obvious to me that I would be playing with shot sizes starting at 200 hp ratings.
 
Cal. You claim that you didn't mean to come across as ridiculing, but did just that anyway. This isn't the first time you've apologized to me for this. I would suggest you look up the meaning of the word and study it well. You might become a better person for it. We're already clear that you don't cheat.

Now you are going to use my apology against me so "I will be a better person for it"? I didn't apologize to you because I thought I was ridiculing you. I apologized because YOU thought I was ridiculing you. I considered it the decent thing to do. It's about perception. Just because I chooses to disagree with you, you perceved it as me ridiculing you. I'm done apologizing since you can't do the same. Quit whining and get over it. Based on what little I know of you, this can't be the first time someone has ridiculed you :eek: Oh yeah, Thanks for accepting my apology :rolleyes:

Will couldn't have said it better: "what set a lot of the criticism and other BS in motion with you is when you posted the thread about what you called a revolutionary tuning discovery and acted like it was going to change everything. Pretty bold statement."
 
Cal, when I insinuated that someone might be using nitrous, that wasn't aimed directly at you. You're welcome to go back and study those threads to see if I mentioned your name directly.
Do you babysit the cars for these guys? Do you keep guard on them so that no one else could possibly tamper with them? Do you think that you are always the only person that has his fingers on these cars? If the answer is yes, then I hope they're paying you a lot. You deserve it.

You insinuated that one of my friends was using nitrous. Yes, I think I am the only one with his fingers in the program. I attend every TSO race he does to include the tech inspection. Do you think that he could use it without me knowing?

Even still, a teardown and inspection procedure is a very important part of any class racing program. If someone is running a class racing program with no teardown and inspection program, I certainly wouldn't compete in it. That is simply inviting cheating.
Cal. I would hope that even you are smart enough to realize that.

Yes, EVEN I am smart enough to realize you have to inspect the cars, which I explained to you in another thread exactly what we do. Have you EVER competed in any form of sanctioned racing? Or are you just going by what you see on TV?

And, to say that you think less of me because I would be tempted to cheat in a situation where there was no effective inspection program in place to ensure that everyone was playing on an even playing field,... well,... I can only take that as a compliment.

Don't you have any morals? You take that as a compliment? You did not say you would be tempted. You said "if I were running in that class, I'd be hiding a system too." Sorry, I was raised better than that. Just because you won't get caught, doesn't mean you should do it.


Most, if not all of the famous people in racing have prided themselves about how they got away with or were caught pushing the rules. In my opinion, that would be the crew chief's and tuner's primary job.

There is a BIG diference between studying the rules to find ways to make your car faster WITHIN THE RULES, and deliberatly breaking a rule. THAT IS CHEATING. I would like to believe most people won't deliberatly cheat, you being an exception.
 
Cal. Don may also not be aware of the $$$ it costs to protest another racer.

I'm not sure what the cost is in TSO, but my class is $500.

Don, you can't just have someone tore down because they are fast. If you think they are cheating, put the $500 up and have them tore down. If they don't find anything you loose $500.
 
There used to be a 3/8 mile paved circle track in El Cajon. The name of the track was Cajon Speedway. It has been torn down for awhile now for airport expansion.
In 1996 and 1997 our shop helped sponsor a team that included a well known Outlaw engine builder who had a shop right next to ours. The class we helped with was a Sportsman Class. We took care of the tranny work.
We also helped with a Modified team a few years after the Sportsman deal.
Jerry Gay was the driver in the Sportsman car. We won the Sportsman Championship in 1996.
Murl Bruton was the engine builder and Crew Chief during those years. Better known for his drag boat engines, he also was involved in Outlaw engine building. He was nick named "The Wizard" by his adoring competitors. The name of his drag boat was "Hellfire".
I used to visit him next door and sit with him while he told his stories of his glory days. If you have racing in your blood, it's like you have glue on your azz stuck to the chair while listening to his stories. On the outside, Murl gave the impression of a salty old grouch, but once you got to know him he would show his teddy bear side. A true gentleman. I would compare his persona to that of John Wayne. He became a true friend to me and my wife. So now you all understand the dedication I gave to him in my first video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_SJ_zRkOE0
He knew some great people in the racing world. Smokey Yunick came out to visit him once before he passed away. You'd think, wow, Smokey Yunick, but he was just a regular fella just like the rest of us. Smokey was a true innovator.
There's a head porter in town who also happens to be nick named Smokey. Some people in the Buick community out here also know of him. Steve Stanley is his name. He partnered with Murl during his hayday and they ate up the competition.
Murl even has Nascar connections. He knew Junior Johnson, among other well known names. The stories he told were amazing. One story I remember was about a time when Murl was helping out someone and was standing next to Junior watching the racing. Murl's car went up into the weeds and started a fire, and Junior, with his deep voice and slow southern draw, turned his head to Murl and said, "Your boy is out there on fire".
When my project was still just a dream, I remember bouncing ideas off of Murl. As time progressed with the project, I could tell Murl was as excited about the project as I was. He passed away 2 weeks before I was ready to take the car to the track. That hit me hard. Still brings tears to my eyes. He was truly a great racer and friend.

So you ask how I know about the best of the best pushing the limits and beyond. Now you know.

Dusty. I am well aware of the cost of a teardown inspection. They had the same deal at the circle track. It was also realized that if a racer was a jerk, competitors would gladly pay out the money to inconvenience the fella.
In fact, they had a deal where you could buy the competitor's engine and you had to give him yours in the deal. A sort of trade. If you wanted to have that winners engine, just fork out a small amount of money and give him your engine and you had a top notch engine to teardown and study.

So you guys think racers don't push the rules and beyond. Get involved in some circle track racing and get an education.
 
When you get the others guys engine....it's called a "claimer" rule. It's only used in the classes where a tight budget is encouraged. There are drag racing classes that have this rule as well.

If someone can buy your engine for $3500........would you invest $10,000 into it? It keeps the big $$ guys out.

Dirt track racing is huge around my area. Round track racing has a whole other mind-set compared to heads up racing. We all know NASCAR racers have that saying "It's not cheating till you get caught" They get a kick out of finding loopholes in the rules. Drag racing isn't all the different but hiding a nitrous system in a class that doesn't allow it is the most disrespectful thing you can do.
 
Like I learned when I was a kid street racing and was impressed by the fellas that were coming out with nitrous systems and bringing everyone to tears and their knees,

All is fair in love, war, and racing.
 
I remember a time when we were going for the championship. Jerry radioed Murl and was complaining about the engine. If I remember right, it was getting hot. Murl being the racer he was told Jerry, "You put that pedal to the floor and you don't stop until you drive over that crankshaft!!!"
Man,... those were fun times.

The rivalry in the pits was unbelievable. That was also when I learned about the term 'pit lizards'. What an amazing time it was.
 
Another story that was always fun to hear was about when a driver would start to get cocky.

"Boy,... you're nothing but a shoe. I'll screw you out like a spark plug and screw a new one in."
 
Some may not know this, but Steve Stanley was involved in the Buick Indy racing program.
 
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