Machine shop problems...does it cost this much and how do you fix these problems???

[noahzark]

i bought a cat crank stock stroke, bhj balancer internal balance, k1 rods, diamond pistons, and an rjc girdle...ok now its a fortune at the machine shop...so far 4 hours for the girdle 405 dollars...

now there is problems...apparently the woodruff key doesnt work/fit with that crank so they are going to try and modify a ford one or machine one or whatever equals more shop time...so far 400 for the rotating assembly...

i also bought a jw flexplate internal balance...but again apparently the cat crank has some fitment problem with the flexplate and the flexplate needs to be chamfered to fit???...so they have to find a lathe big enough to machine it or i or them will have to die grind and chamfer the flexplate again equals more shop time...looks like after the cylinder bore , deck parallel, line bore , line hone...im looking at around 1500 and im guessing there as well...sounds like a lot to me and sounds like a lot of fitment problems with these parts...

one more thing i bought head studs but they are going to use the bolts to torque down at the machine shop what is the torque spec 75 ft lbs for bolts or ?...then when i get the block back im going to put in studs anyway so what is the torque spec for studs? is there a difference or ?...thanks for help...noah.

 

[87we410877]

For the crank key you could have called webber and he'd hook you up with what you need for about 30 bucks shipped. Comes with a shim that fits in there and is then cut off fluch with the crank nose. Its also milled shorter.

 

[VadersV6]

The shop sounds like a bunch of sheisters. If they were well equipped and had been in business long enough, they would have a ton of keys laying around and would have one that fits. The flexplate thing doesnt add up at all. Also if you go and dremel the thing, it will be out of balance. I dont get why you would need a chamfer anywhere for the thing to bolt up. If they had a manual mill and a rotary table, they would need a lathe, and you dont need a huge lathe to do it. You just need a mounting plate, which anyone with a lathe should have. Its nothing fancy. Its just 2 flat surfaces bolting up. If there is a pocket on the flexplate that the crank sits in, the end of the crank should be turned down just where it needs to be. Not the flexplate. If they have a crank grinder, it would be a 5 minute job.
I assume you're having the whole rotating assembly internally balanced, right?
A paralleled deck is bogus. You want a squared deck. And you need a special squaring jig to do it. Some shops that are under equipped, will run into way more problems than someone who's got what they need to do their job. So then they have to spend tons of time making it all work, and you pay for it.
Whats the deal with the head studs? Why wont they install them? Once again it sounds like they're under equipped. The deck will also be tweaked differently than when you use studs vs bolts. Hopefully you're using main cap studs, and not bolts, right? And if so, the line hone MUST be done with the studs and cap girdle all mounted and torqued down. Any other way and the main saddles will tweak differently when you install the studs, and your line hone will be worthless.
And the common sense approach to the key issue, would be to call CAT and see what they say to use. I have a feeling the issue is the balancer, not the crank. usually all you have to do is deburr the key, or buy the right one from just about anyone. Go to mcmaster.com, and type woodruff key in the search bar and see what comes up. Alot of keys. They arent just used in automotive applications. They're used in the whole power transmission industry..electric motors, compressors..on and on.
These guys sound lame.
They could also mount the crank in a mill, buy a keyway cutter from mcmaster, and open it up a tad. Not a big deal if you have a shred of ability in a machine shop. Call CAT and ask them what the dimensions are for the correct key, and buy it from mcmaster yourself, and take it to the shop and lay it on their table. Make them feel stupid, or expose their lies.

 

[TURBOTOMZ]

I would go pick up my parts before you have a bunch of useless (new) parts!!
Doesnt sound like they know Buicks or even small block Chevy's. If they are going to bore the block or line hone/bore with out the studs they are lacking some basic skills but thats just my .02 cents

 

[noahzark]

thanks for the feedback...and a few mistakes on my part...

they have put in all the studs etc for the girdle and torqued it for the line hone bore...so that is done...

the issue with the crank is that they need a lot of cleaning up to fit they are not drop ins at any rate...your right chamfering the flexplate isnt the way to do it ...i talked to weber racing and couple others and what they do is they radius the crank so that the flexplate sits flush because it doesnt the way they come...so they are going to do that instead...

now the reason they arent using the head studs is because i want to do most of the assembly ...so i just gave them the original head bolts and they will torque them down to spec at 75 ft lbs...that will change when i put the studs in as arp has their own specs also according to what lube u use with it theirs or another oil...so ill just do that when i get it all back...

as far as the deck parallel ...pretty sure im just wrong there on the wording im sure they are decking the block...

this is the only machine shop in our area that has ever done any buicks and they do do other racing high performance engines...saying that they havent had to deal with the cat crank fitment issues and there are a few of them to say the least...again thanks for input and i think im just a bit more frustrated with the extra costs after buying all new parts...but that seems to pretty much be the way it is with all performance aftermarket parts so im sure im in the same boat as many...anyway thanks again for info and help...noah.

 

[Blown&Injected]

LOL - the you got to have a Buick machiner do it

And they would tell you the same thing - the crank is not a drop in, and the key is different and the JW flex plate and BHJ balancer will need work to be right.

Went through the same thing when I decided to go with the forged internal balance crank and nobody would deny that the machine shop that did my crank is not Extremely Experienced With The Most Powerful Buick's.

 

[VadersV6]

I dont get it. You want to do most of the assembly, which is why you're having them install head bolts instead of studs, which you will pull out and swap yourself? I dont get it at all. Why not leave the heads off and install them yourself instead of ripping it all off again? Seems like alot of un needed work.
You didnt mention that the girdle was actually installed when they did the line hone. You said they "installed the studs for the girdle", but didnt say if the girdle was on when it was done. I would spend the extra money on things like drilling out the main oil galleys all the way through, and plugging the ends with pipe plugs, squared and zero decked, ( you need to have them show you the squaring jig cause alot of them lie and say they have one when they dont) flash polished out, return galleys for oil draining opened up, steel capped, girdled, line honed, mag'd, studded, etc. Basically a full blueprinting job. 99% of shops nowadays will charge for blueprinting, and then not do a single damn blueprinting operation, or maybe 1 or 2. Make sure to look at every cylinder wall very close in different angles of light, and make sure there are no stains of any kind on the walls. This shows deposits left by an improper rinsing job after hot tanking, and this will affect ring break in and blow-by.

 

[noahzark]

thanks again for info...i dont really understand much of the machine shop lingo so i know im getting some of that wrong...but i will write these things down and bring it to their attention and i can go in the shop and check it out as i was there yesterday and they were showing me the progress so far...thanks again...noah.

 

[turbofabricator]

If they are using the stock head bolts to torque the torque plate down they are really the WRONG bolts to use. (they are torque to yield) Us the studs that you are using in the final build to get the proper torque and pre-load on the block. High performance engine building is the SAME whether you are building a Chevy , Ford, Mopar or Buick. EVERYTHING needs to be checked TWICE! And then re-checked. Did they also check the rods for cam clearance? Block for crank clearance? EVERY single part must be double checked to ensure you don't have fitment issues later. If this is your first stroker build, I would seek advise and personal help installing all the parts. One tiny issue can cost you the entire build. I've seen so many issues with Buick V6 build ups it's amazing. Even VERY experienced machine shops screw Buick V6's up all the time. I personally have to explain every detail to them to make SURE they do it right. One shop built a StageII engine and didn't check the cleance with the roller cam and rods. They hit and broke the chain and started a chain reaction.........The shop claimed it was the timing chain that broke first. (you could SEE the impact patch on the cam lobe!) Be very careful assembling your engine. Have someone experienced with the Buick V6 stroker assemblies help you, or let the machine shop assemble it for you, so they have to stand behind their work. If you assemble it and there is an issue, it's your fault you didn't find it during assembly. Call the vendor that supplied you with the parts and ask them what is needed to install it in the block. If they don't know, use a different vendor next time. This type of build-up takes many many hours in just measuring, clearancing and fitment. Good luck.

 

[TURBOTOMZ]

Not necessay to have a machine shop that has experience with the most powerful Buicks, but someone that WILL tell you that they need to install the head studs for proper machining

 

[VadersV6]

Yeah, like I was saying, having the bolts installed with the heads, torqued down and all, just to tear it all apart again and install studs, and waste the set of head gaskets in the process, doesnt make any sense. Just have them clean out all the threads with a tap, and install the heads yourself with the studs and everything, and use red loctite with the studs, where they screw into the block...not on the nuts! Bolting the heads on just to tear them off again is a huge waste of time and money....Plan everything and always double check their work. Spin the motor to TDC on each cylinder and measure deck height...use some calipers or a depth mic if you have it, and measure how far down the hole, the piston is at TDC. Do it on every cylinder, and at each quadrant....top of the piston, bottom of the piston, right side, left side. That will tell you if they truly square and parallel decked your block. They should all measure the same. But there will be a small amount of piston rock, so keep that in mind when writing down the numbers. You can also use a straight edge of some type and use feeler gauges.

 

[urhstry]

Good information here!

 

[Ormand]

The stock head bolts won't ever get anywhere near 75 ft-lbs. So they need the studs. If they claim to have used the bolts at 75 ft-lbs, don't believe them.

 

[noahzark]

well they did use the stock bolts and they did go to 75 ft. lbs...so i cant really sit there and call the guys liars ...especially when my block is in their hands lol...

anyway i told them i wanted 18 to 20 main clearance done so that was my choice ...hope its right...everything else seems to be ok ...when i figure out how to post pics up ill post them up of the tear down rebuild with all the info ...because i think this monster is going to go fast reliably ...the key word there...thanks for info ...noah.

 

[Lee Thompson]

Do Not Use !!!!

Red loctite when installing head studs in block---use any of the rtv sealants (with clean threads on both parts). You will have to use heat or take the chance of pulling the threads when you have to remove them (if using permant Loctite) and you will someday have to remove them. JMO. I used to use pipe thread sealant but have since switched to rubber sealant as per DLS and others recommend. Seals much better than the others. I'm not saying the Red Loctite won't seal just a bear to get the studs out when not necessary.

 

[VadersV6]

Red loctite when installing head studs in block---use any of the rtv sealants (with clean threads on both parts). You will have to use heat or take the chance of pulling the threads when you have to remove them (if using permant Loctite) and you will someday have to remove them. JMO. I used to use pipe thread sealant but have since switched to rubber sealant as per DLS and others recommend. Seals much better than the others. I'm not saying the Red Loctite won't seal just a bear to get the studs out when not necessary.

Guess all those nascar/top sportsman/SuperStock/on and on... engines I did got by on luck. The red loctite does seal, and seals extremely well, and you can get the studs back out just fine with a double nut or a stud socket. RTV is the biggest garbage ever made. The moment its exposed to any engine liquid and heat, the bond is broken. ever use it on an intake, pull the intake off and all the rtv is barely hanging on? It doesnt work. I never use it any more on anything. "The right stuff" by permatex is the only thing to use on intake manifolds and anything related to coolant or oil...but not studs or bolts. In the days before loctite realized they could make alot more money by telling people they need an individual product for every different thing, red loctite was THE recommended sealer/locker for head studs...by permatex themselves. Any teflon based sealer will not hold up either. Teflon based sealers were designed for compressed air systems and plumbing...water/air. Not for contact will oil or anti freeze. They bond very poorly when oil or anti freeze hits it and it cold flows. Loctite surrounds threads, and then expands, locking the bolt/stud in place, and creates a perfect seal that will never go. As long as you dont back off the bolts to re-torque the heads, you'll be fine. Take the torque wrench to the right number, and re-torque...but dont back off. Blue loctite works great for fuel systems as well. Gasoline will break down any teflon based tapes or pastes immediately. Dont use green loctite for anything on an engine. Its far too hard and brittle. Ive seen it damage engines internally.

 

[turbofabricator]

Ask five different engine builders what they use to seal threads, and you will get five different answers. I too, have built some VERY high power engines and have used both Teflon and RTV with GREAT success. I have NEVER had Ultra Black RTV fail in an oil environment. I have used it in every engine I have built over the last 10+ years or so an it works GREAT. I personally do NOT like locktite for anything except for high strength locking where it is used to install a bolt. For a stud if you do not install the nut when the lock-tite is wet, you WILL compromise the locking and sealing abilities of the stuff. No disputing that. Just read the company data. I am currently using Permatex thread sealant, with teflon, and my studs do not leak any coolant and I am using anti-freeze, too. Use what ever you feel good with though, as I'm sure it works. Smokey Yunick always installed engine studs with slow dry epoxy and made DAMN sure that the nuts were torqued to final torque BEFORE the epoxy had time to set-up. One local sprint car engine builder doesn't use ANY thread sealer on his stuff. He says it's a waste of time. Go figure. Most of the high end builders that I work with all use Ultra-Black or teflon thread sealant on studs. What ever floats your boat. :smile:

 

[Blown&Injected]

Not necessay to have a machine shop that has experience with the most powerful Buicks, but someone that WILL tell you that they need to install the head studs for proper machining

Relax. Do not need to be a "Buick" shop to build these engine - that is all I'm sayin'

 

[Blown&Injected]

Ken, I too have used a bunch of different sealers and have always been OK.
I like Loctite too - never noticed the green but it sounds like it is just as well anyway.

 

[VadersV6]

A sprint car doesnt need thread sealer because he doesnt have to worry about coolant consumption over time. He's spinning around a track for a few laps. Hell, my old friend holds the nitro harley record for his class, which he set in the 60's. This thing didnt even have valve covers....doesnt mean its a good idea to drive around without valve covers.
Smokey Yunick sounds like he would have used loctite if they would have had it back then. Slow dry epoxy sounds pretty damn close. Regardless, this is something we did on hundreds of engines with great success. Like I said, loctite themselves used to recommend this, until they thought up ways to make more money. Teflon tapes and pastes were intended for compressed air systems, not oil and coolant and heat. Go out and use teflon tape where your fuel line screws into your fuel rail. Fire it up and tell me how well it sealed. You think it will be any different inside your engine? Teflon reacts with coolant and makes a pretty nasty by-product that doesnt belong in your engine!