Kirbans ZDDP

[86gngirl]

sometimes you need to question the dealers motives-

Richard is not a dealer or does he care to be.

kirbans a distributer -thats it -he has contacts and at the right spot at the right time
just like gnx suspension-he didn't invent it -hes a dealer

but because of customer relations or people not liking him for whatever reason -loyality to other organizations/ racing clubs ect

-the suspension must be bad!-

I never implied that!! The misinformation from the dealer, Tom Henry Car Dealership, was over the EOS and why it is no longer availible. You should go back and read my posts. Just because people are who they are doesnt always mean they have your best interests at hand. It had nothing to do with Mr. Clark nor Mr. Kirban, twas the product itself. I wouldnt let someone hand my kid a gun, let him go off and play with it for an hour or so, then ask if it shot real bullets or water.

 

[GNocide]

chill out
take it easy:biggrin:

 

[turbofish38]

Mobil 1 drained out like tar after 4000. That means the oil is burning.

I use M1 in all of my Buick turbo cars. I have been since day one, 21 years ago.The GN goes on the average 3K before changes unless I've done a lot of racing with it. The other turbos see on the average 5K. The stuff drains out like piss on these motors. I'd say if you suspect the oil is burning than maybe it's the engine, not the oil that is the cause. I run Mobil dino oil in my LT1. Same thing. Drains like piss. And the Mobil1 keeps them clean too. I've got the cleanest motors around. I blew both HGs a couple of months ago. The work goes so much faster when you dont have to clean parts up.

You know what's funny? Ever since the Toyota sludging engine fiasco, the only thing I've found on oil sludging concerns OHC motors. Not a pushrod motor to be found. Do a google and tell me otherwise.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

sludge doesnt mean its burning. mobil one has detergents in it. and it cleans while its in there too. Ive changed a LOT of customers cars oil, and 99% of them come out really dirty even on clean motors, and only 3000 miles between changes.

 

[A2000RICH]

sludge doesnt mean its burning. mobil one has detergents in it. and it cleans while its in there too. Ive changed a LOT of customers cars oil, and 99% of them come out really dirty even on clean motors, and only 3000 miles between changes.

i totally agree with you-------if the oil didn't get dirty it couldn't be cleaning the engine-----its sort of like washing your car and the water stays clean------ how's the dirt going to be removed from the car-----that doesnt mean that the water is "superior" to "other" water that gets dirty when it carries dirt from your car---------all engines that burn gasoline create by products that end up in the crankcase and need to be removed------and there are only four ways to remove it -1-hold in in suspension in the oil till it is drained, this requires that the oil get "dirty" and its not bad i.e. its how the detergents and dispersents are designed to work---------2-suck it through the pcv back into the input and burn it-------3-vent it outside the engine with "breathers"----------4-tear the engine down and clean it---------anyone that tells me that he drained his oil after 10k miles and it was still clean is telling me that his oil is not cleaning and/or protecting his engine-----------unfortunately most folks don't have a clue how motor oil is supposed to work-----------at this point in the explanation i would also like to add that some of the things that 95% of us do to our TR's to make them run faster is contrary to keeping the engine clean---------#1 worst thing of all??? 160 degree thermostat--------NO DOUBT IT HELPS MAKE MORE HP but it lowers overall engine temp-------if you drive your TR for a daily driver a lot the oil will have to work much harder keeping your engine clean---------that lowered 20 degrees from stock is a real qualifier for "severe duty" when it comes to oil change intervals--------next worse??? removing the pass side inlet vent and replacing it with a open air breather-------sure it prevents the engine from gulping hot air but there's a lot of contamination in that hot air that doesn't exit as easily when it isn't "sucked" out---------these two things make such a difference that i cannot suggest strongly enough that if you have a nice low mileage "survivor" that you never race that you would be doing the car a giant favor to return these two things to "stock"-------you will be amazed at how much cleaner the engine stays...............RC

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

quick question on that. How does oil have a harder time cleaning, if your engine is cooler? what happened to the hotter running engine thinnin' the oil quicker. If you have 200 hours at 65 mph at 195 degrees, vs. 200 hours, at 65 mph at 165, which car is going to break its oil down quicker? I was under the assumption (i went around in circles on the buickgs boards with this question) that too cool an engine, resulted in incomplete burn of the a/f mixture, resulting in some carbon seeping down past the rings, and totally ruining the oil in short order. Is that correct? (ive no clue here, and am just throwing out speculations for you to confirm or deny for me)

Secondly, that oil suction thing at the turbos inlet bell. sure it's sucking that contaminate out, but where do you think that crap ends up? when I first got my gn, oil POURED out of my intercooler. That canNOT be good any which way you slice it. when I yanked my throttle body and dog house, it was horrible inside there. after I cleaned it out (no doubt the original owner never did that) it remained clean thereafter. Is oil in the combustion chamber good? I cant see it bein any good. And I always thought, that the crankcase was under boost anyways, so some of that crap gets stuck in the little pass. side breather doesnt it?

And, all of these symptoms point to one thing. Either a dirty engine, or dirty oil. So, in your expert opinion, would changing the oil with a top quality filter, every 1500 miles alleviate any of these symptoms? Ive always changed my oil every 1500. (and I have both those mods you mention) do you think I gummed er up now? What is your opinion (on good motors) on engine flushes? What do ya think? Are they worth a dam?

 

[Howard Hoyt]

Hi!
I’m new to the forum; Richard Clark asked me to drop by and help answer some questions regarding oils and detergents.
First off I do not own a TR :frown: (I know…booo hisss) even though I have been dying to use one of the powerplants in my cars, but I am a 30 year GM man, having owned a 1969 GTO RAIII convertible (1 of 269), a Chevelle and quite a few ’62-’67 Novas with SB motors, so don’t hate me too much.

To address Turbo6Smackdown’s questions:

“How does oil have a harder time cleaning, if your engine is cooler? what happened to the hotter running engine thinnin' the oil quicker. If you have 200 hours at 65 mph at 195 degrees, vs. 200 hours, at 65 mph at 165, which car is going to break its oil down quicker? I was under the assumption (i went around in circles on the buickgs boards with this question) that too cool an engine, resulted in incomplete burn of the a/f mixture, resulting in some carbon seeping down past the rings, and totally ruining the oil in short order. Is that correct? (ive no clue here, and am just throwing out speculations for you to confirm or deny for me)”

You are dealing with multiple different issues in this one statement.
1) Breakdown of oil as a function of increasing temperature, which is certainly true! The cooler an oil runs, the less the breakdown of its base molecules and additives. It sure lasts a long time in a bottle at room temperature!
2) Detergent action as a function of temperature. Every chemical reaction has a threshold energy necessary in order to allow it to proceed. This energy can come from the application of heat, ionizing radiation, or even mechanical agitation. This means that at some low temperature, a detergent is inert, and unable to chemically react. As the temperature increases, the detergent molecule’s energy is closer to its threshold of chemically reacting and performing its function. At some temperature the detergent begins to react slowly, and the rate of reaction increasing with increasing temperature. Obviously at some high temperature, the basic detergent molecule breaks apart, destroying its functionality. These limits define the minimum and maximum service temperatures for that detergent. The detergents in oil are usually sulfonate based ionic surfactants incorporating calcium succinate and many other compounds. These molecules are interesting in that they physically consist of a polar head attached to a hydrocarbon tail. This gives them the desirable characteristic of being attracted to other polar materials such as metal and carbon, and the hydrocarbon tail allows them to remain suspended in oil.
3) Combustion efficiency is enhanced as an engine is run hotter, mainly due to the reduced thermal differential between the combustion gases and the metal cylinder parts. Any time you have a hot gas in contact with a cooler metal surface, heat energy flows from the gas into the metal. All of the heat that moves into the cylinder and head are waste. Ideally these parts would absorb no energy, which would eliminate this heat loss, and allow the gases to expand in direct proportion to the energy released by combustion. We all know that this cannot be so with conventional fuels due to preignition, but you get the point. The boundary layer of gases at the cooler metal surfaces are incompletely combusted, and this boundary layer is directly proportional to the temperature. Therefore less temperature, more incomplete combustion products and quicker oil contamination.

To sum up:
Hotter> Better combustion, more knock/less spark advance, more oil breakdown, more aggressive detergent action.
Cooler> less complete combustion, less knock/more spark advance, more oil contamination, less aggressive detergent action.

This situation shows the complicated nature of an engine/fuel/oil system, and the amount of engineering that goes into it to make all the mechanical and chemical parts work at some critical range of temperatures.

 

[SGRIM]

I have just started reading this thread. I do not have the knowledge to comment on the technical side of this. However I will say with the up most confidence Mr. Clark is one of the most knowledgeable men I have ever met. He truly loves the TR's, you can't even imagine without seeing If he took the time to put the research into this and is willing to support it I have no question in my mind he is just trying to help! This man truly excels at what ever he tackles. He is still a Legend in the car audio community for a GN he built 20yrs ago. It was YEARS ahead of its time, honestly still remains top dog IMO....

He isn't selling HP in a bottle or making outlandish claims. IMO he is just trying to help preserve stock(ish) TR owners cars. He is all about the cars and keeping the TR legend going. He is not a vendor and I am not trying help to push a product. Just giving props to a man I feel deserves them....

 

[A2000RICH]

Secondly, that oil suction thing at the turbos inlet bell. sure it's sucking that contaminate out, but where do you think that crap ends up? when I first got my gn, oil POURED out of my intercooler. That canNOT be good any which way you slice it. when I yanked my throttle body and dog house, it was horrible inside there. after I cleaned it out (no doubt the original owner never did that) it remained clean thereafter. Is oil in the combustion chamber good? I cant see it bein any good. And I always thought, that the crankcase was under boost anyways, so some of that crap gets stuck in the little pass. side breather doesnt it?

And, all of these symptoms point to one thing. Either a dirty engine, or dirty oil. So, in your expert opinion, would changing the oil with a top quality filter, every 1500 miles alleviate any of these symptoms? Ive always changed my oil every 1500. (and I have both those mods you mention) do you think I gummed er up now? What is your opinion (on good motors) on engine flushes? What do ya think? Are they worth a dam?

as for your second comment please understand that i am in agreement that the "oil suction thing" that you refer to is really a dumb half baked design-------but it does evacuate the crankcase------lots of engines have them its just that in a turbo engine you can't just put a suction tube where it works best unless you can close it under boost--------that said GM chose the cheap route and left us with a poor design and yes a lot of the stuff ends up inside the engine but at that point most of it is burned and exhausted------oil in the combustion chamber is not a good thing but its pretty small----------it takes a long time for much oil to accumulate inside the intercooler if the engine is in good shape------the oil transfers as the lighter fractions boil off inside the crankcase and the hot fumes are sucked into the turbo-------when they reach the intercooler they cool and condense back into a liquid----------once in a liquid form a lot of this never reaches the engine but remains inside the intercooler coating the inside with a thermal barrier and preventing efficient performance-------as for 1500 mile oil changes---- WOW---- thats a pound of prevention--------except for really extreme circumstances that would rate excessive in most everyones book----------if you start the car regularly and never let it get to temperature, drive it for only short hops etc, then it is possible that it could be justified or if the car has been neglected --------remember just because the oil looks dirty that doesn't mean its bad------it just means that there are contaminants in suspension and they should be removed before the oil becomes saturated------remember there are two primary reasons for changing oil and its not because the oil wears out--------oil can and has lasted for millions of years-----as long as it isn't overheated it can last a silly long time the real reason for changes is twofold-------first is that the additives actually wear out------they cease to be able to control wear, neutralize acids, maintain viscosity and clean the engine parts------ and second the oil becomes overloaded with contaminants and can hold no more in suspension-------this is the kind of stuff that filters will not remove so the oil must be drained to carry it out of the engine-------changing the oil before the additives are depleted or before the oil is "full" serves little benefit if any at all----------as for oil flushes i'm not too keen on them especially since done improperly they can do more harm than good--------with good attention to regular service there should be no need for them--------i buy a lot of used TR's that have been neglected and i have found that regular driving with a few short term oil changes like you mention actually does a good job of cleaning the engine especially if a 180 degree thermostat is temporarily put back in place for a while.........................RC

 

[A2000RICH]

I have just started reading this thread. I do not have the knowledge to comment on the technical side of this. However I will say with the up most confidence Mr. Clark is one of the most knowledgeable men I have ever met. He truly loves the TR's, you can't even imagine without seeing If he took the time to put the research into this and is willing to support it I have no question in my mind he is just trying to help! This man truly excels at what ever he tackles. He is still a Legend in the car audio community for a GN he built 20yrs ago. It was YEARS ahead of its time, honestly still remains top dog IMO....

He isn't selling HP in a bottle or making outlandish claims. IMO he is just trying to help preserve stock(ish) TR owners cars. He is all about the cars and keeping the TR legend going. He is not a vendor and I am not trying help to push a product. Just giving props to a man I feel deserves them....

just having fun--------thanks for the kind words...................RC

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Mr. Hoyt, I didnt mean to make those two points into a run-on sentence. Sorry for the horrible grammar lol. (the hotter engine thinning the oil, and the cooler engine contaminating it) but thank you SO much for coming over to help us out. You guys are truly genuine resources to our world. (care to stick around longer? lol)
So what do you guys think of Mr. Hoyts summary for a mildly souped up street car that is barely driven? Cooler or hotter? Do you want to go as hot as you can, without knock?
What else in our systems, can help fix the less complete combustion, in a cooler running chamber? Is there anything?
And what happens to normal cars during the winter? (our daily drivers) Do we get less complete combustion in our chambers during the winter months? (but why do they feel so much peppier in the cold?)
If so, do standard issue cars dirty their oil quicker in the winter?
And Mr. Hoyt, confirm some things for my simple mind. In your summary
"Hotter> Better combustion, more knock/less spark advance, more oil breakdown, more aggressive detergent action.
Cooler> less complete combustion, less knock/more spark advance, more oil contamination, less aggressive detergent action. "
you say that the hotter running oil has more detergent action, but the cooler running oil has more contamination. (well, quicker I'm guessing.)

You are meaning that the hotter oils contamination is due to it being able to more efficiently utilize its detergents, and the cooler running oils contamination is due to by-product from the not so complete combustion right?
So am I seeing that the cooler running oil not only doesn't clean as well, but gets filled up just as quick (if not quicker) from the muck out of the combustion chambers? Running a super cool engine appears to be a two prong attack on our oil's abilities if I am indeed understanding this correctly. It would seem as if our oil gets dirty nonetheless, but from incomplete combustion, rather than it actually cleaning our engines. Though, you state that it does last longer in a cooler enviroment. Do you mean 'last longer' as in its ability to reduce friction? And tell me how long does each attribute last. (the oil getting filled up with contaminates from cleaning, and the friction reducing ability) Could one significantly outlast the other, and do they in any way interfere with each other? Meaning, if my oil got 'full' prematurely, does it still retain its ability to adequately reduce friction?
I would think not, meaning, that cooler running engines would need more frequent oil changes then right?
So pretty much, cooler running engines (in theory) are probably a little dirtier than hot ones?

 

[2QUIK6]

---remember there are two primary reasons for changing oil and its not because the oil wears out--------oil can and has lasted for millions of years-----as long as it isn't overheated it can last a silly long time the real reason for changes is twofold-------first is that the additives actually wear out------they cease to be able to control wear, neutralize acids, maintain viscosity and clean the engine parts------ and second the oil becomes overloaded with contaminants and can hold no more in suspension

Another scenario not mentioned that I've always wondered about....like yourself, I have several cars that get driven only to occassional shows and such. Looking at my log book, I've logged only 500-700 miles on 2 of my cars in 2 and 3 years.
Should the oil be changed based on age, or should I leave it in there until it gets say 1k or 2k miles on it..which might be 5-6 years
What is recommended in this scenario?? I know most oil manufactures say every 6 months, but that seems ridiculous when it only has a few trips on it in 6 months..I'm sure thats to benefit no one but the oil company.

BTW they do not get taken up to op temp that often either even when sitting, they do get started say about 1-2 times a month, but just to back them out of the garage if I need to put something on my lift.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Another question. Your statement of "Any time you have a hot gas in contact with a cooler metal surface, heat energy flows from the gas into the metal. All of the heat that moves into the cylinder and head are waste. Ideally these parts would absorb no energy, which would eliminate this heat loss, and allow the gases to expand in direct proportion to the energy released by combustion."
Well, when I was asking about piston top coating in another thread, to see if that really did protect the pistons, and help evenly disperse the combustion over the piston, making a little more horsepower, Chuck Leeper mentioned that he had everything coated. So I went over to Swain's and Calico's website and read up on that stuff. They talk about how good their coatings are for combustion chambers (piston tops, valve faces, and chambers) and how they resist heat. (to also contain every bit of combustion chamber heat and pressure, to further maximize horsepower. i never thought about coating the whole chamber to help with hp)
So do you think this would help, with keeping the heat in, and the cold out, so that a cooler running engine wouldnt mess with the combustion "completeness"? or do you think that this would make it soo hot inside, that we'd have knock all over again, totally negating the 160 t-stat and big radiator mods. Coating the combustion chambers to keep more heat in, sounds like a stupid move to me.

 

[VadersV6]

I don't think the starburst has anything to do with the content of ZDDP,

It has nothing to do with "thinking". Its a fact. Using misinformation to sell a product is not a new method either. The starburst symbol (as well as the codes with it) shows that the oil has been reformulated for lower emissions, and the additives that all oils previously had, have been dramatically lowered to help emissions and mileage...in that particular oil. Since most modern engines use a roller valvetrain, they dont need ZDDP. Another source of valvetrain failures years back, was that 3 out of the major 4 lifter manufacturers went out of business, and the world started getting all these cheap chinese lifters with terrible metallurgic qualities. they were much softer than the lobes and they were wiping out immediately. Around the same time, many of the oils were reformulated, which doubled the problem.
The Castrol oil you mentioned...if it has the starburst symbol, it has dramatically reduced ZDDP. If it doesnt have the symbol, it doesnt. Look for the CIF-4 or CI-4 number, and that tells you it has all the ZDDP you need. There is a symbol on all bottles, but dont confuse them ALL with being the "starburst" symbol. Rotella has a symbol, but its not the star. And it also has the code denoting the ZDDP additives in the oil. You're saying Rotella doesnt have it or wont have it...where are you getting this from? Of course it does and it will continue to. The entire diesel industry is not going to change overnight or do a 100% recall of all diesel engines in the world to get revamped to accomodate a new oil. They need these additives and Rotella is diesel oil. I think you need to read up a little more. If you want to separate myth from reality, look up virgin and used oil analysis sample tests on this site:
Bob Is The Oil Guy - Powered by UBB.threads™

 

[VadersV6]

I'd like to comment on a few of your thoughts

now theres a product named ZDDP?

---------its not named ZDDP-----its ZddPlus-----

"Why not just use a product WITH ZDDP"-------because most of the oils that contain adequate amounts of zddp have other characteristics that make them less than ideal for our cars according to the original requirements specified by the manufacturer-------with the exception of higher priced "exotic oils" that cost much more than conventional oils

"I got about 2mpg better mileage with royal purple"-------while i certainly believe royal purple is good oil i have to wonder-------are you sure about the calibration of your odometer or your math???-------considering that the API rates oils as energy conserving if they can extract a mere 2% in mileage increase that seems pretty amazing-------the fact is that even then most of the savings is due to lower viscosity ratings that reduce pumping losses and not actually friction in the bearings----------in several daily driver GNs consisting of various amounts of city and hwy driving i average in the 20 mpg range-------2 mpg would amount to a ginormous 10% increase-------i doubt any reasonable person could believe that-------i do believe if that were even close to true that GM, Ford and virtually every other manufacturer would quickly make "royal purple" factory fill cause that would be the single most cost effective mileage increase since the introduction of CAFE ratings--------and the API would certainly make a "class all of its own" for "super-duper energy conserving"

"Mobil 1 drained out like tar after 4000. That means the oil is burning"-------Mobil 1 like tar?????--------in the last 20 years i have run hundreds of gallons of Mobil 1 through my personal cars including many of my several dozen GN's and i have never witnessed such a thing------doesn't seem possible since the high temperature rating of Mobil 1 is easily the equal of any other synthetics-----the ability to handle extremes of temperature at the high and low end is the single greatest attribute of synthetics to begin with-------if Mobil 1 could not handle the temps of a GN then there is virtually NO WAY that any one could even consider a conventional oil in a GN and we all know that most GN's are run with conventional oil with no problems and they were in fact originally specified from the factory to use conventional SF oil

I dont have a varying trip distance, and last i checked, a gear driven speedometer doesnt have a slipping clutch last time I checked, so its not like the odometer can "vary". I drive the same route to work and back every day, and thats all I drive with this car. My results are not in a vacuum...many people can attest to it. A year later I am still seeing the mileage benefits. Moly is one of the most "slippery" substances on the planet, and fills microscopic voids throughout the engine...this can increase your oil pressure..it can increase compression, etc....not a wives tale..its absolutely true. RP has ALOT of moly and is one of the main reasons Ive used it for 8 years. I used it in my cobra and beat the living hell out of it...7500rpm powershifts with 600hp in the dead of winter without warming the engine up AT ALL, and the engine was like new when I sold it with 60,000 miles on it. And in those 60,000 miles and 5 years, I did 8 oil changes with 8 filter changes. When I drained it after 8-10,000 miles, it looked almost new and didnt smell burnt like the mobil did. When I say "tar", its a JOKE! It drained out black and filthy and thick and had seen better days. I used Mobil soluble oil in my CNC's and its the worst crap on the planet. It went sour/rancid within a couple weeks every time and the blending was terrible. It would seperate into clumps as delivered and just sucked all around. The fact it comes from Mobil, doesnt mean its the best. It means it has tens of millions of dollars in marketing power behind it. Ive used many many different oils out there and Ive only posted what Ive seen. I usually have to change the oil in my GN every 4000 miles or so, and by then Ive burnt through 2 quarts...and thats with a decent oil like "Q" high rpm or valvoline SYN. The last change, I used Royal Purple and went 10,000 miles without changing my filter, topped it off with 2 quarts, and it drained out looking almost new, and without any carbon or soot buildup under the valve covers like other oils have always done to me over that time period. Redline is an EXCELLENT oil. So is royal purple. Valvoline SYN, Quaker State "Q"'s are great....
So you're trying to say that the turbo buick requires a "special" formulation of ZDDP? Telling people they need something unique and special when for years they havent needed it, is always the first trick to scare people into buying a product. Ive put 55,000 miles on my TR in the past 3 years without a special ZDDP formula. People were freaking out about wiped cams, and instead of believing everything I read on the internet, I did some research. I UNDERSTOOD the problem...not carrying on a wives tale. I found out about ZDDP 3 years ago and made sure people on this board knew about it and I made sure to keep it in my oil....and all I did was run oils that already have plenty of it. All the engine..I mean all the CAM and lifters need is a sacrificial layer to prevent the metal from wearing on metal. Why did they used to use lead in gasoline? To save the exhaust seats. It was a sacrificial layer that was used to keep the exhaust seats from wiping out, because back then the valves were riding right on cast iron...no special seats like today. Telling people that the great oil Armageddon is right around the corner and your product is the only thing they can use to prevent catastrophic engine failure, by telling them that all ZDDP everywhere will be removed, which is flat out false, by simply scaring people into buying it, is not the way I would have done it. If you say that this product has all the ZDDP you need and will allow you to run any oil you prefer...I can see that. But saying everyone will be removing it when its not true at all...well you get the point.

 

[VadersV6]

Im seeing so much misinformation in this thread I dont even know where to start....The oil coming out filthy doesnt mean its from detergent action. The oil coming out black and smelling burnt...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...its a duck!. The oil is burnt. Say the Mobil 1 always comes out black and stinking like a forest fire because it "cleaned" the engine. What exactly did it clean? Where did all the soot come from? Unless the motor was filled with ash and dirt and carbon to begin with, I cant think of where it would have come from. Oil change after oil change after oil change...it keeps coming out black and burnt....where did these contaminates come from? The gasoline? Do you know how refined and clean premium fuel is? Pretty damn clean. You still need a fuel filter, but its not enough to make the oil look so bad. And this was an extremely clean burning engine.
As for the OHC engine and the oil draining out thick..yes it was my DOHC cobra. After 5 years of hard abuse, I smogged the car and it burned as clean as a brand new showroom Honda civic. Almost non existent numbers. The test only station guys were scratching their heads and wondering how it burned so clean as they never see similar cars produce such results. I told them I used mobil 1 once and the rest of its life I used RP....told them about moly and how I could easily see it doing this for the engine.
At JMS Racing we only used redline in our top end race engines. After entire road racing seasons, we'd tear the motors down and you literally COULD NOT TELL the engine had ever been run by looking at the bearings and cylinder walls. The redline always drained looking new as well. The internals of the engine were totally clean. I guess because the oil wasnt black and fried, that the oil wasnt doing a good job of cleaning? Well then the inside of the engine should have been nasty, since the oil looked clean....
News Flash! Maybe the nasty black burnt oil is actually BURNING.

 

[2QUIK6]

It has nothing to do with "thinking". Its a fact. ...The Castrol oil you mentioned...if it has the starburst symbol, it has dramatically reduced ZDDP. If it doesnt have the symbol, it doesnt.

So you are saying the exact brand of oil, just different viscosities has different levels of ZDDP? 10w-30 has the starburst, and 20w-50 does not, so the 20w-50 has ZDDP simply because of the starburst not present.
If you read upon the starburst symbol use from API Standards, it only has to do with improved gas mileage..nothing about ZDDP. A thicker oil will have obvisously have worse gasmileage. The Rotella is 10w-40, it too doesn't meet the API standard for mpg, therefore no starburst. Go on believing that those oils still have ZDDP in them.. they don't if they have the SM formulation standard. Its ALL oils due to EPA an emissions systems to be warranted for 100k+ miles, auto makers have big pull when it comes to the oil industry so they are not going to continue to put additives in oil that is damaging to those systems that are under warranty no matter what brand or viscosity. There's tons of info on this..I've done my reading

 

[GNocide]

Telling people that the great oil Armageddon is right around the corner and your product is the only thing they can use to prevent catastrophic engine failure, by telling them that all ZDDP everywhere will be removed, which is flat out false, by simply scaring people into buying it, is not the way I would have done it.

well you didn't do it- you didn't do anything that was measurable scientific or formulated on paper that would add up to a accountant let alone an engineer.

If you say that this product has all the ZDDP you need and will allow you to run any oil you prefer...I can see that. But saying everyone will be removing it when its not true at all...well you get the point.

i would like to know who your government contact is that told you it isn't being phased out along with the study on how much zddp was in oil in 87 and how much is in there now.
and

lets see your test analysis also (not richards on the excact amount of zddp) and names of oil manufacturers that gave you your info...


WHILE YOUR AT It ADD THE INDEPENDANT test labs you had it done at to ensure they were correct and the cost of doing so
scan them for proof
or



im calling bull**** to your empty attack/ rebuttal thingy

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

I think was vaders saying has merit. "The entire diesel industry is not going to change overnight or do a 100% recall of all diesel engines in the world to get revamped to accomodate a new oil. "
I dont see that happening. That would cost more money than is in circulation in this entire country lol. Diesels do need it, and you'd wipe hundreds of thousands of work trucks out, by yankin all that zddp. you'd shut down this country lol.
Though vaders, the mobil 1 oil comin out nasty, is common place. I used to manage a preventative maintenance and oil change facility, and true, most customers didnt take care of their cars, but 99% of them were 3 years old or newer, and ALL their mobile one oil came out lookin like crap, whereas the others did not. all our premium oil changes were the same. black muck.

But you are still missing one thing. There is in fact a huge reduction in zddp in todays oils. It's proven. The other fact is, were driving around 20 year old flat tappet valvetrains, with brand new oil meant for roller valve trains. Not a good match in my opinion.

 

[GNocide]

I think was vaders saying has merit. "The entire diesel industry is not going to change overnight or do a 100% recall of all diesel engines in the world to get revamped to accomodate a new oil. "
I dont see that happening. That would cost more money than is in circulation in this entire country lol. Diesels do need it, and you'd wipe hundreds of thousands of work trucks out, by yankin all that zddp. you'd shut down this country lol.

the only misinformation in this thread is pretty much vaders.

no one said it was an instant change even for diesels- but its slowly coming out of there too- since 2000 it has been in reduction.

gas or diesel motors are built with different clearances and bearings then they were in 87.different manufacture process as well so the trucking industry will not shut down over night but will be phased out as well weather you want to believe it or not.

btw what genius said diesel oil was good for our motors anyway?
the viscosity is way off as well as the additives plus the too little amount of zddp thats in it will not suffice or sustain in our cars.

at best its a band aid