J&S "Safeguard" individual knock control system...

[norbs]

I log the JS retard on the XFI, and change the volts output to retard degrees. Don;t forget it has an adjustment knob on it to filter out other engine noise, and a headphone output that you can listen to the knock live. I have the older model that does not have that feature though. I will be testing the unit on my new motor, on my older set up I had other mechanical issues limiting the testing of the unit. However since I have to build a stage 2 to fit A/c with a 4" downpipeand equal length headers fitting, this proces is slow right now, I could be down all summer.

 

[HighPSI]

I log the JS retard on the XFI, and change the volts output to retard degrees.

That's pretty cool. Does it have a 0-5 volt output that you run to an analog input? How does it let you know which cylinder is knocking? Have you tuned individual cylinder timing based on the data you are getting?

 

[TTipe]

I believe it can download that data to a laptop.

I can't believe that this device has not really been on the Buick radar much.There are a few vids out there that will indicate this device's worth.I don't really need to sell this to anyone because it sells itself.

 

[TTipe]

I log the JS retard on the XFI, and change the volts output to retard degrees. Don;t forget it has an adjustment knob on it to filter out other engine noise, and a headphone output that you can listen to the knock live. I have the older model that does not have that feature though. I will be testing the unit on my new motor, on my older set up I had other mechanical issues limiting the testing of the unit. However since I have to build a stage 2 to fit A/c with a 4" downpipeand equal length headers fitting, this proces is slow right now, I could be down all summer.

One of the vids shows the base gage with 10 lamps across the top.The guy tuning said somewhere he had the retard max set to 10*.If the gage is linear 10 led's might mean 10*; implied 1*/led ?? If set to 20* 10 leds may mean 2*/led?? I don't see a means of identifying which cylinder is knocking.Looking at the circuit mech the detection of knock (1 knock occurance must be allowed to supress timing on the next firing event) lowers the circuit resistance to less than than the coil by completing a ground path.Milliseconds later a new 12v pulse replaces the initial hence the spark retard for the 1st event after knock detection.This thing is fast,sensitive and quickly qualifies the knock severity.It does not pull a lot of timing when not required.

 

[toofastforyou]

This looks like a pretty cool device, but I would also want to make sure that when it retards the timing "only in the knocking cylinders", that it has the ability to differentiate between the two cylinders on the same coil.

Cal, I'm far from being an expert like you, but if I remember I read in the instructions on their website that there is a wire to connect to each coil...If there are 6 coils, I assume that it's one per cylinder...and if there's a wire going to each coil, doesn't that mean that it should be able to manage each cylinder separately?...Just asking...
and

I'm not necessarily advocating this device but it has some interesting features which do promote safety for those of us "misguided" tuners.

Yeah...like me...

Claude.

 

[toofastforyou]

I'm surprised to see how many replies this post has generated...and
as for being "misguided", I should've said "unexperienced" instead...

claude.

 

[TTipe]

Cal, I'm far from being an expert like you, but if I remember I read in the instructions on their website that there is a wire to connect to each coil...If there are 6 coils, I assume that it's one per cylinder...and if there's a wire going to each coil, doesn't that mean that it should be able to manage each cylinder separately?...Just asking...
and
Yeah...like me...

Claude.

The device has 3 leads or 1/coil.The coil module to coil has 3 leads.When the knock sensor registers knock the next firing event is intercepted and delayed.Firing order 165432 assures that opposite poles on the same coil can't have back to back firing events. It wouldn't work regardless because there is not enough time to resaturate the same coil. It doesn't need to manage each cylinder independently since the next firing event will have timing affected.If no knock is detected on the next event,the timing is not affected.This occurs when using the individual cylinder mode.

 

[HighPSI]

Cal, I'm far from being an expert like you, but if I remember I read in the instructions on their website that there is a wire to connect to each coil...If there are 6 coils, I assume that it's one per cylinder...and if there's a wire going to each coil, doesn't that mean that it should be able to manage each cylinder separately?...Just asking...
and
Yeah...like me...

Claude.

I'm certainly not an expert on this device, hence all my questions. Remember a stock Buick has 3 coils, not 6. That was why I was questioning if it had a way to diferentiate between the 2 cylinders on the same coil. It's really a shame it can't tell you which cylinder is knocking. Then you could pull timing out of just that cylinder. I am certainly not saying this is a worthless device since I have never tried it. I must admit, I'm sceptical of the value, since I don't like running the engine that close to detonaton.

 

[TTipe]

I'm certainly not an expert on this device, hence all my questions. Remember a stock Buick has 3 coils, not 6. That was why I was questioning if it had a way to diferentiate between the 2 cylinders on the same coil. It's really a shame it can't tell you which cylinder is knocking. Then you could pull timing out of just that cylinder. I am certainly not saying this is a worthless device since I have never tried it. I must admit, I'm sceptical of the value, since I don't like running the engine that close to detonaton.

Mr.Hartline I don't disagree with anything you have said in this thread. My only thought is that I don't control mishaps like a stuck injector in WOT or whatever. I believe most engine damage occurs in/accident during the developement of a tune.I also think some of us get greedy and press for better performance to quickly.I have seen a friend of mine make simple mistakes and cost himself 3 shortblocks.With the money and time for 3 built 109 blocks tapping into the high 10's with proper fueling and spark (running the abbaccus) he might have nearly had a rebuilt offcenter stage 1.This box is the difference between a window and a head gasket.

 

[TTipe]

Mr.Hartline I don't disagree with anything you have said in this thread. My only thought is that I don't control mishaps like a stuck injector in WOT or whatever. I believe most engine damage occurs in/accident during the developement of a tune.I also think some of us get greedy and press for better performance to quickly.I have seen a friend of mine make simple mistakes and cost himself 3 shortblocks.With the money and time for 3 built 109 blocks tapping into the high 10's with proper fueling and spark (running the abbaccus) he might have nearly had a rebuilt offcenter stage 1.This box is the difference between a window and a head gasket.

Just one thing.I see no possible way that the JS would be compatible with OE controller (abbaccus) without some software instruction changes/deletions.

 

[John at J&S]

Just one thing.I see no possible way that the JS would be compatible with OE controller (abbaccus) without some software instruction changes/deletions.

Norbs has the single channel "Universal" version for distributor ignition.

The "Vampire" version connects to the coils of a COP or waste spark ignition. Control wires connect from the unit to the coil negative signal of each coil. The "control" wires are both inputs and outputs, so no wires are cut or intercepted.

Individual cylinder knock retard is no problem with a waste spark system. For example, say cylinder 1 of the "1-4" coil is knocking. Software calculates the amount of knock retard to apply the next time this cylinder is on its compression stroke. Software "knows" that this cylinder won't be on its compression stroke again for two more revolutions.

In one revolution, cylinder 4 will be on its compression stroke, so it will not be retarded unless it was was also knocking.

When cylinder 1 is again ready to fire on its compression stroke, software looks up the calculated retard value for that cylinder and fires the 1-4 coil. Cylinder 4 is on its exhaust stroke, so "retarding" it has no effect on power.

For reference, see the four channel waste spark installation for '96-'98 Ford:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/Instructions/Vampire_Instructions/4ch8cylVampire.pdf

 

[toofastforyou]

"John at J&S", if I remember correctly, you explained to me by e-mail that the best system suited for turbo Regals is the "Interceptor" but now in your last reply, you're only talking about the "Vampire"...so for a guy like me who's not an electronics wizard, it gets a little confusing as to which one to get, "Interceptor" or "Vampire"? I'm running the stock coil pack along with a FAST XFI engine management system and a MSD DIS-4 (which connects via a spacer sandwiched between the coil pack and lower module).

Thanks...

Claude.

 

[John at J&S]

The Vampire version does not work with CDI.

The Interceptor version for MSD is the one you need. The output drivers of the Interceptor for MSD are open collector rather than push-pull.

This system would install between the FAST and the MSD DIS-4.

Internal jumpers allow you to convert back to push-pull outputs in case you want to use LS1/LS2 type coils rather than MSD.

 

[TTipe]

Norbs has the single channel "Universal" version for distributor ignition.

The "Vampire" version connects to the coils of a COP or waste spark ignition. Control wires connect from the unit to the coil negative signal of each coil. The "control" wires are both inputs and outputs, so no wires are cut or intercepted.

Individual cylinder knock retard is no problem with a waste spark system. For example, say cylinder 1 of the "1-4" coil is knocking. Software calculates the amount of knock retard to apply the next time this cylinder is on its compression stroke. Software "knows" that this cylinder won't be on its compression stroke again for two more revolutions.

In one revolution, cylinder 4 will be on its compression stroke, so it will not be retarded unless it was was also knocking.

When cylinder 1 is again ready to fire on its compression stroke, software looks up the calculated retard value for that cylinder and fires the 1-4 coil. Cylinder 4 is on its exhaust stroke, so "retarding" it has no effect on power.

For reference, see the four channel waste spark installation for '96-'98 Ford:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/Instructions/Vampire_Instructions/4ch8cylVampire.pdf

John I'm looking for clarification of individual cylinder retard with respect to waste spark ignition coil.The Buick V6 uses a 6 tower,3 coil ignition box (hence wastespark) due to current direction back and forth across the coil. The firing order is 165432 and the coils service cylinder pairs (coil 1-cyls 1-4,coil 2-cyls 5-2,coil 3-cyls 3-6) with a dedicated ground to each pair. Can the Vampire retard spark on cylinder 1 and not retard spark on cylinder 4 within 6 firing events?

 

[John at J&S]

Yes, it is individual cylinder knock retard.

 

[TTipe]

Yes, it is individual cylinder knock retard.

John thanks for the response. I just figured out how this works (2*1/2=1) Great product!

 

[kidglok]

does it log the data as to which cylinder it retarted, when, and how much timing was pulled?

 

[John at J&S]

does it log the data as to which cylinder it retarted, when, and how much timing was pulled?

You can log voltage that drives the bargraph display. That would show the amount of knock retard, but not the cylinder.

The retard voltage can change with each cylinder, so you would need a fast logger.

Giles Gilbert sent this data. He is using the Interceptor on a Honda S2000 with an AEM ECU. The knock retard signal is the middle graph:
http://jandssafeguard.com/Giles/AEMknocklog.html

Video of me testing the Interceptor. The retard voltage is the top trace on my scope:
https://picasaweb.google.com/JohnPizzuto/JSVampireInstallation#5389069501584814018

You would need to log the cam signal to correlate the retard signal with the cylinder number.

 

[TTipe]

You can log voltage that drives the bargraph display. That would show the amount of knock retard, but not the cylinder.

The retard voltage can change with each cylinder, so you would need a fast logger.

Giles Gilbert sent this data. He is using the Interceptor on a Honda S2000 with an AEM ECU. The knock retard signal is the middle graph:
http://jandssafeguard.com/Giles/AEMknocklog.html

Video of me testing the Interceptor. The retard voltage is the top trace on my scope:
https://picasaweb.google.com/JohnPizzuto/JSVampireInstallation#5389069501584814018

You would need to log the cam signal to correlate the retard signal with the cylinder number.

Thanks John for the vids showing inaudible knock and individual cylinder control.

 

[John at J&S]

Don't know if you saw them but several years ago I unpotted a stock ignition module and posted pics on the other Buick forum. Search for an early thread started by "JohnP".