How firm is too firm?

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PigGuy

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
I had my tranny rebuilt by Janis Transmission and got my stall converter (though, I haven't bought the turbo to match it yet). I asked for firm shifts, since it's not my daily driver, but wow... wow.

The shifts are so firm it scares me. My shifts used to bark second with ease, they felt firm, not snappy, just firm. Now, they feel snappy as hell. It used to be like I was kicked in the back someone in the back seat, now, it's like a twitch, too fast to even think it was actually shifting. I've never felt anything like it, and I've been in several cars with shift kits, and some had what I thought were VERY firm shifts.

My friend got in the car and as we pulled out of his driveway, it shifted, and he said "WTF was that??" The car really just chirps the tires, it's like nothing in the tranny slips at all, only the tires and torque converter. Is this a little extreme?

It's not that I don't like it, but I'm worried about things, like that $800 rear end with posi... and my $2100 rebuild. I love how firm it is, but am I likely to blow stuff up with my now high 12 second car? (soon to be 11 second when I get my turbo/injectors)
 
well did you ask him what kind of shift kit he uses?what size and stall converter?that makes a difference too ..
 
It's a 9", I don't know what he used... I don't want to be a PITA, I asked for firm shifts, though, I just never expected it this firm.
 
I just had a harsh shift kit installed in my rebuild. Car chirped 1st with almost no throttle. I felt like a bobble head it slammed so hard. Took it back and they removed some of the blockages required to shift so hard.

They claimed that it would eventually break a tranny mount and u joints...

Now that it's toned down it shifts nicely. (firm/ not harsh)
 
PigGuy said:
...$2100 rebuild...
Click to expand...
Good God. :( I don't miss Ohio much. :mad:

Robbie-87plz said:
Can you afjust the TV cable?...
Click to expand...
You can probably give the cable a click or two to settle it down, without hurting the line pressure. How did you adjust it when installing the new trans?

Oh...and you're not being a pain if you make a couple of calls. There's no need for a "Thank you sir, can I have another?" demeanor when you've spent 2100 Dollars on a 2004R.
 
You only don't miss Ohio when you move to South Carolina... I just moved to the Detroit area last month. *barf*
Where in Northeast (IIRC) Ohio did you used to live?

It was $2100 built, stage II, whatever you'd want to call it, billet input shaft, HD bands, clutches, sprags, billet servo and a billion other things that I have no idea what they do... but now I won't have to worry about it anymore. Labor was only a portion of the total cost.

Ooooh, post 100!
 
Vince Janis is one of the best in the business. I don't think you need to worry. I have rode in one of Vinces built 200's and it's great. Your money was well spent.
 
I have a Janis trans as well and after 2 years of daily driving it still shifts hard and quick...that's the way I like it! Very good builder. Once this thing ever goes again it's going back to him. Don't let 2100 dollar fool you, that is money well spent and your tranny is virtually bullet proof now which is one less major thing to worry about...

one thing you might want to do is run Valvoline Dexron III w/ Mercon...the shudder protection stuff...it seems to ease on the shifts a bit...it's what I've used in my trans since the rebuild...
 
Vince is a great guy and knows his 200 4R's inside out. I know he would WANT you to call if you had any questions or concerns. He is just that type of guy. As far as $2100 goes for his build on your trans with billet pieces, that is a great price. Many will build you a trans for less money, but I know from much personal experience, many corners are cut in prep to make up for the cost. It is not worth it to save $500 on the front side of a repair only to have to spend that and much more to rebuild the trans prematurely. I am still amazed people will spend $10k to $20 k on an engine and then expect to get the power to the ground reliably with a trans they are only will to spend $1,100 on to get it there.
 
PigGuy said:
I had my tranny rebuilt by Janis Transmission and got my stall converter (though, I haven't bought the turbo to match it yet). I asked for firm shifts, since it's not my daily driver, but wow... wow.

I love how firm it is, but am I likely to blow stuff up with my now high 12 second car?
Click to expand...

I got his normal Street Build, and the shifts are happen very quickly in it also. You did say firm, and that is a subjective term. :)

FWIW, I was replacing a Level 10 tranny with my Janis. The Level 10 was slightly harsher shifting then my Janis, and I had 50,000 miles on it, and NO traces of Band or clutch material in the pan. Which really shocked me, I thought for sure with all the hammering I'd done on trans, it would have been much more tired then that.

While it just might be me, when I deal with a vendor lately, I just state what my concerns are, and let them say what they will, ie call Vince, and tell him your concerns, and see what he says. I had a slight fubar in the install of my tranny that he did, and he took care of it as soon, as he could schedule me in, and took care of it for free. He's one of the good guys, IMO.
 
When I had my tranny built a few years back it had a shift kit put in. My mechanic thought it was too hard for his tastes. After a test drive he got on it and it shifted and broke the timing chain I had installed a few days earlier. He said a harsh shift could do that. Maybe it was just my workmanship since it was the first timing chain I ever replaced. Anyways, he replaced the chain and I took delivery. The tranny lasted a few years before the crank got hungry and starting eating a bearing. A long sit in an open field with no engine and a built engine with bigger turbo combined to kill it once I got it back on the road. BTW, what shift kits did you guys get that seemed too harsh? I like chirping the tires with each shift. :D
 
Hey pig guy

I had my tranny gone through Lonnie @ extreme auto and its the same as yours its to the point i can barley drive it so lonnie was telling me ill have to mod a couple of things that might help and if not then just send it back and he will send another one :eek: :cool:

I say if its not to your liking and it shift so hard you have to let off the gas then send it back of have them pull it and change it

Johnny

I dont like to bi#th about little stuff but dam its almost unbeliveable
 
Again, Vince and Lonnie are GREAT builders, not just good. Get a looser convertor and the shift harshness will be reduced. The 200 needs to shift quick and firm to make the clutches live in a performance application. Buy the CK Performance Manual and read up on the transmission (great manual with pictures and detailed explanations of how things work and why). :cool:
 
The higher stall convertors will reduce the shift "feel". They usually feel like they are shifting too hard with the stock convertor, and it was reduced with my orange stripe, and even more with the Vigilante. I might be changing to the Art Carr non lock up. I would expect an even milder shift.
 
as time goes by we are constantly finding new ways to reduce shift shock at minimum throtle.at this point in time i think i have finally mastered the art of calibrating shift feel in the 2004r.most of it is very simple and the results are not that different between a high or low stall after we understand the fundamentals of hydraulic circuitry.in our manual we suggest blocking the 1/2 acc at over 400 hp with a super hi stall converter.this is really not necessary if you use our recalibration kit.the hole sizes in the plate and our accumulator springs allow friction elements and the planetary gears the hold and drive to aply properly at all throttle angles.in my mind and personal perception of these principles i have come to term this throttle sensitive shift accumulation.those of you who have followed along as we presented our products and understanding to the marketplace understand our way of thinking.these things should always be reviewed when posing such questions or trying to gain factual information in regards to principles of operation.also i think our manual should become the source for info on this transmission and the benchmark or starting place for anyone seeking information.although bruce toeele ,vince janis,and others all are reputable builders there is transmission end play indexing info as well as other thingsin this manual that would be valuable even to them.at the present time neither have a copy .if they put this thing out i would have got one from them.heres what im getting out.the minute we close our ears to useful information the narrower our understanding becomes.i have learned from bruce toelle,vince janis,lonnie and many others who contribute here.i just think that all who own buicks should have this manual handy and not just so i can get your 65.00 to put towards another new mercedes benz..many of the answers i and others give out to such questions here can then be researched via technical formats or hydraulic schematics.my calibrations are based on real world testing and hard work .yeah i hijacked this post but now that ive got your attention id like to thank those who have helped us grow by providing quality products and services as well as real tehnical advice gathered the hard way.tomorrow we are closed for the scheduled delivery of our new baby.just leave a message .
 
I think my builder must know the same tricks as CK is talking about. Mine is very soft at lite throttle. But at half throttle is shifts rock solid. I remember talking to the builder cause I had told him it did not matter how hard it shifted since it was not a daily driver. He explained the trick to long life was not necessarily hard shifts all the time. Only shift hard when needed to make sure there is no excessive slipage on the bands during high accellleration "events". At cruise you hardly feel it shift so I was surprised it was so soft when I picked it up and asked him about it. It does have to be tailored to your engines hp output...raise hp, then must go back a tweak the tranny. So far 2 years of banging the heck out of it and its just now starting to show signs of wear by the dust in the pan. Need to get a new convertor anyway since I have a bigger turbo now and more hp...so its time for an adjustment :)
 
I have a Janis rebuild and yes it does shift firm. After finding the right adjustment on the TV cable it seems to be about right though. I also found that after I did the initial install I was running too much tranny fluid. Drained a little out and this eased the harshness of the part throttle shifts. I haven't tried the Valvoline ATF but will likely on the next fluid change.
 
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