Help me design my front soundstage

[INEEDAGN]

Long story short I'm building a budget system for my GN using stuff that's been in my closet since the late 90's. I have a pair of custom fiberglass kick panels that the previous owner had built with provisions for a 6.5" but no tweeters. I'm wondering if I should stick a set of tweeters on the pods as close as i can to the mid or whether I should go with two way 3.5"s in the dash instead. I will not be using passive crossovers, all active signal shaping so I wasn't planning on buying a component set. I know that they probably should be on the kick panels, with the whole equal distance and time alignment issues, but I was wondering if I can bring the soundstage up enough with everything that low in the car. I plan to experiment with 6X9s in the rear deck, mainly as bandpass mid range fill only, but i'll try it with the tweeters going also for grins. The reasoning for the rear fill is that I don't think I can afford a real high quality 6.5 in the front that will give me all the midrange that I desire. Gotta stay budget oriented but I do not yet own the front speakers so give me your opnions.

If you want to read the rest of my plans then i'll ramble in this paragraph. The subs I will be using are two 10" kicker solo barics, the old round ones. Two reasons: I already own them, and they work great in a small sealed box which is what I need. They have to be able to fit on the upper shelf of the trunk by the rear seat, and with a recommended box volume of .66 cubic feet, they'll fit up there wth room to spare for other equipment. Trunk space is very important to me, I already need more trunk room while on the power tour and this stereo sure won't help. Since i'm a sealed box kind of guy I need to throw lots of power at them. Back in the day I ran them with a pair of PPI pc275s which bridge to 300wrms each and I was happy with that. I still own the amps so they will get the job again and I will be buying more PPI powerclass amps to run the front end, they are good ole beasts from before the whole PPI/DEI sellout and i'm familiar with them. Plus they got a smooth body which lends itself well to repainting/custom work, since the two I have are scratched up and the scratched ones are cheaper on ebay. (everyone flocks to the art series in PPI amps but I also have the art series equivalent of my sub amps and I did a back to back comparo one day and found no difference at all in sound quality or power level, from 6X9s to my 10's clear up to a 15" solo baric, which was way too much sub for 300 watts, but I did it anyway since the art series is supposedly way underrated. I can say with full certainty that the power class series is equal to the art series, and cheaper and more versatile). I need to plan the front soundstage now so I know what I need for amps to run it all. Processing? I knew you would ask, so I'll beat you to it. AUDIOCONTROL rocks! I will be using their crossovers exclusively, and for equalization I plan to start with a clarion digital unit that is head unit driven, since I already own it all. It is only a 2 channel 7 band though and I know I will want more in the future. Got my eye on them audiocontrol digital units that control from the front seat via a remote but that's gotta wait due to the whole budget thing. You can bet the wiring and alt will be up to the task as well. As for sound deadening, I don't even know where to start. Mainly: How the hell am I going to deaden that trunk lid without putting ugly dynamat all over it? I'd rather not cover it with carpet either to hide the dynamat. But that bridge is quite a ways down the road.

Any opinions are welcome!
bob

 

[VMineo]

Your overthinking this whole stereo.The simpler the better.The 6.5 will be fine the kick since midbass is non-directional(Well most of it).The closer the tweeter and midrange are,the better.You could put the midrange in the dash and tweeter in the pod.Or If i wad you I would find a really good 4 '' midrange/tweeter 2 way speaker and mount it in the dash.Mb Quart(The german one) made a really good one that was neo magnet.As far as the rear I would do 4-6x9s on the rear deck.Believe it or not they slam.6X9'S bass really good.You wouldn't have to worry about rattles and etc.Getting the rattles out of a g-body is hard.You would have to use expansion foam in the rear deck and fill in all the gaps.The spoiler will rattle,will need to foam that too.I think you would be happier with 6x9s.I guarantee dynamat will not get rid off all the rattles.Anyway good luck

 

[GregInAtl]

I'd do a coax mounted component set for your kicks like Hybrid Audio, something nice that you can get into and never replace again. Run a couple of 8" for mid bass in the deck and a good 12" w/ a lot of power (skip all the DEI stuff....old PPI is better, but new ARC Audio is even better) in a small sealed enclosure. Keep it simple, dont skimp on wire and sound deadner and rock out w/ your.... sock out.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Well the whole problem with running 4 6X9s or 2 8s in the rear deck is that i do not want to cut the car up. I MIGHT enlarge the 4X10 holes out and try to find a way to sink the 6X9s below the factory carpet without using those adapters. Overthinking? Maybe, but hell it's fun to dream and plan and besides, the devil is in the details. I already have the 2 10"s and the amps so you'd have to make a very persuasive argument for me to change that plan, but I do wonder what kind of box volume a single quality 12 can get down to, it might save some space. I still got that 15" solo baric, that thing was a monster with 600rms to it but it's not as space friendly. My powerclass amps are pre DEI, I've been out too long to know what current brands are any good but I know all my old favorites sold out. I used to run my highs with U.S.Amps USA series from mid 90's, man those things were f'in killer amps. The few I see nowadays are priced sky high and the new ones are crap. I will look into the coaxial mount components, I like that idea a lot actually. I suppose I can experiment with 3.5s if I don't like the kicks exclusively. But with nothing more than a single component set against 600rms in bass, they better be good speakers cause they're getting run HARD. I haven't the foggiest idea as to good brands of component speakers anymore either, in the old days it was whatever was on closeout at crutchfield. I would appreciate any feedback on any of my plans and a list of respected front speaker makers. Nothing too exotic though, I need to be able to spend money under the hood to make up for all that extra weight!

 

[ADAM12]

you system

use toby 6x9 in rear there a woofer only use the pods for sure coax like inf kappas sound good no dash spots only a center or it will kill you stage also in rear toby make s horns to go with the 6x9 toby corp ft worth tx 817 731 1142 he also made subs for the fact 4x10 opening like liner did in the 80s good luck ':biggrin:

 

[GlockandRoll]

i've painted some backstrap, and bent/cut it to mount behind the side of one of the speakers and put the tweeter on it. The cool thing about doing this, is that you can actually aim the tweeter after the fact, even when it's completely painted and installed.

I went image dynamics comp horns, the big ones, I dont think there is a better image/stage in the car, and no mods to the car at all, didnt even have to move the ECM.

 

[GlockandRoll]

Also, I think you will be VERY happy with the two solobaric 10's, I've done some fantastic sounding cars with solobaric subs; they are one of the most musical subs back then. Small sealed boxes need lots of power, but the transient response is epic.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Yeah those horns look nice and I've heard there's nothing better out there, but they do look like lots of work and since I already have the pods it'd save a ton of time that I don't have by just putting in a good component set. Some research has netted me some coaxial mount sets and even some three way sets that have a 3.5" driver as well as a 6.5" so I got some options. I do like the backstrap idea though if it comes to that.
Thanks

 

[GlockandRoll]

back-strap is a wonderful thing when it comes to mounting tweeters. I wish I stil had my old install pics. Another thing you can do, is counter sink the tweeters under the mids, and aim them both towards the area between the driver and passenger's heads... eye level.

3-way component sets would be nice in a G-bod, you could build out the pods like me and put the 6" there, and the 4 and tweet in a small kick panel.

 

[Eticket]

GlockandRoll,
Please take no offense as everyone's ears are different, but how much have you compared your horns to other comparable cars/speakers? I've heard probably half a dozen horned comp cars back in the day and dozens of "conventional" speaker comp cars and the comparison wasn't even close. The horns sounded abrasive, sorta of mono, and not warm at all to me (they were just loud). Not to say that all of the conventional speakered cars sounded to my tastes either - but most seemed to be tuned up pretty good. Most all of these cars had 1/3 octave EQ's. Of course Richard Clark's GN is the all-time winningest, but I just don't get it and never made that jump myself because I don't know if it was tuning/setup/or what really.
Just for reference, I'm running some rare B&W's in my daily driver now - they are about the most natural sounding speaker I've ever come across.

 

[GlockandRoll]

GlockandRoll, Please take no offense as everyone's ears are different, but how much have you compared your horns to other comparable cars/speakers? I've heard probably half a dozen horned comp cars back in the day and dozens of "conventional" speaker comp cars and the comparison wasn't even close. The horns sounded abrasive, sorta of mono, and not warm at all to me (they were just loud). Not to say that all of the conventional speakered cars sounded to my tastes either - but most seemed to be tuned up pretty good. Most all of these cars had 1/3 octave EQ's. Of course Richard Clark's GN is the all-time winningest, but I just don't get it and never made that jump myself because I don't know if it was tuning/setup/or what really. Just for reference, I'm running some rare B&W's in my daily driver now - they are about the most natural sounding speaker I've ever come across.

How much have I heard, well… I worked as an installer/sales manager for 3 years, at two different shops, and competed off and on, even contributing to a 100watt USAC national champ and two IASCA regional and even 1 world champ. It’s a personal preference, I like the way horns sound, because I like live music. These are the big-bodied ID comp2 horns, the $1200 ones, they sound better than most – in fact they have taken more world titles than any other horn, even including Clark’s custom molded ones. It sounds to me, based on your choice of wording, that you actually prefer to distinctly hear the source of the music, which is fine, I had a 3-way MB quart setup in my 91 Accord Sedan with a solobaric 12” in the trunk that I totally dominated with, but I never got that live performance, wall of sound, feeling where if I closed my eyes it actually felt like I was front row at a concert – imaging was good, but staging was not. These things stage unlike anything else, I’ve had people swear I had a center channel in the dash or had put tweeters behind my rear-view mirror when listening too my buick. And, I’ve got a 1/3rd octave EQ, it is a true luxury, however careful design/placement and passive X-over network construction could eliminate that need I would assume. The really big challenge with them, is installing them because they are so damned big.

Here are some more complete pics of my install, it was incredibly hard work, and I’ll be honest with you, more than twice we almost gave up and said, ‘F’it, let’s put some Focal’s in Q-forms and just be done with it.” But I left decided to turn the horns upside down and when we realized that would work, swapping left to right, I then left my friend Gordy alone with nothing but his imagination and he came up with the trim pieces. He’s an amazing installer, I can design with the best of them, but this guy is a true artist, he’s one of the best I’ve ever seen.

 

[Eticket]

I think I know what you're saying. Would love to hear your car one day if we ever hook up at an event.

 

[GNBRETT]

Wow, G&R those horns are impressive. What do u have in the kick panels? What powers the horns? Those look pretty simple yet effective. Is that a factory stereo ur using?

 

[GlockandRoll]

I think I know what you're saying. Would love to hear your car one day if we ever hook up at an event.

I'm sure we will see each other, after all we are just down the road

Wow, G&R those horns are impressive. What do u have in the kick panels? What powers the horns? Those look pretty simple yet effective. Is that a factory stereo ur using?

Thanks. Nothing is in the kickpanels, the ECM is still there in fact. I've got an Alpine PDX-5 powering the whole car, horns are mid-high highpass, mids are bandpass, and sub is low-pass on the mono channel, this is the best amp I have ever seen, it's amazing for it's price. The doors have been upgraded to a set of 6.5" Focal mid-bass drivers.

The head-unit is from a 92 cyclone, sound is OK, but I dont like fighting the noise the head-unit throws out. A good head-unit will solve all my problems but I'm fighting the desire to have a stealth look.
Here are some pics.

 

[GNBRETT]

Wow, those door panels look sweet! Focal makes some clean sounding chit, that's 4 sure. I like the Clif Design stuff as well for the money. I'll have to check out that amp. 21 of 25 people on Amazon gave it 5 stars and two gave it 4 stars. Those are some good reviews.

Im not looken to go with a sub so what would u suggest as far as rear deck speakers? I just dont want the weight in my trunk.

Im liken that stealth look myself. I could give up some sound quality as a result I guess. 92 Syclone huh. Hmmmm. Thanx

 

[L8TRH8R]

I have Focal 6x9's in baffles in my rear deck, they sound great!!! I'd go with those IMO. I also have Kicker SS component's and a Kicker ZX 350.4 running it all with an Eclipse CD5000 (I think) the 8volt deck they made. Just sold my two 12" solobaric L5's and ZX 1500.1 to go with one Focal comp 12 with a HD JL 750.1 running it in a fiberglass custom box. As GnBrett said, weight is a factor for me as well, that's why we are making the box light and most importantly EASILY REMOVABLE! The L5's can be a bear to move as they're NOT light!

 

[GlockandRoll]

I dont have any speakers in the rear deck, it's open. I dont want to detract from the image. If I had an extra mono channel of amplification, I'd probably put some 5" mid-woofers in the rear deck in small ported boxes and bandpass x-over them from 90-200hz for a or that mid-bass 'attack' sound, but I really dont want anything over 500hz to play anywhere except the kicks or lower door panels.