FTS 210/215 Roller Cam Wear with the 1:65 roller rockers

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Hello,

So the machine shop called me Friday and asked to see the camshaft (to check the bearing clearances of the new installed King Bearings). I see that TAPerformance has some really nice grooved cam bearings, but I had already bought the Kings from FTS. So I drive over with the cam and the machinist takes one look at my cam and calls the shop supervisor over. They, both proceed to tell me that the little wear step on the top of three of the lobes is not acceptable and I should buy a new cam and lifters as you should never match a new cam to existing lifters. Not even roller lifters? The step on the top of the lobes "feels like .001" the machinist tells me, all the lobes clearly show the path of the wheel riding up and down the cam lobes.

I was really not expecting this, on top of everything else that I just purchased. Crank, flex plate, balancer, new valves, push rods, bearings, rings....

Question for the engine builders, what method do you guys use to check the installed spring height? I'm thinking perhaps the springs are close to binding, causing excess wear?

I see that ebay has several different spring micrometers for sale, do I need to get the "beehive" mic?

Chuck

 

[ZNix]

That doesn't sound right. As long as the roller lifters are in good shape, there is no need to replace them. I'm curious about the wear on the cam. Post pictures? To check installed spring height, you need the little tool. Something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4929

Although, I cheated and tested mine with a caliper... Probably was wrong, but I never had any issues. Running what I hoped to be around 110 on the seat with a stock cam and lifters!

Also, how did you like the cam? I have been looking at this cam for my new build!

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

A

That doesn't sound right. As long as the roller lifters are in good shape, there is no need to replace them. I'm curious about the wear on the cam. Post pictures? To check installed spring height, you need the little tool. Something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4929

Although, I cheated and tested mine with a caliper... Probably was wrong, but I never had any issues. Running what I hoped to be around 110 on the seat with a stock cam and lifters!

Also, how did you like the cam? I have been looking at this cam for my new build!

I like the 210/215 cam with the rest of my combo and it pulls good up to 6000 rpm. The cam is at the machine shop the engine is to be done this week. I may end up with the K-motion 750 springs, which have a shorter bind value over the beehives.

Chuck

 

[ZNix]

A


I like the 210/215 cam with the rest of my combo and it pulls good up to 6000 rpm. The cam is at the machine shop the engine is to be done this week. I may end up with the K-motion 750 springs, which have a shorter bind value over the beehives.

Chuck

You need to check installed height no matter the spring you use man. That's the only way to get the correct seat pressure.

 

[turbofabricator]

What valves, springs and retainers are you using? What heads? Ported? What valve guide mods, ect.?

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Hi Ken,

Champion iron heads with Ferrea stainless steel valves, the heads do have valve guide decked with a .524 outside diameter turned. Roller rockers, 1:65 FTSpeed's roller cam kit
Sl.# Item Description
1 Revolution X Roller Cam Kit Comp Lifters
2 THRUST BUTTON FOR ROLLER CAM
3 Comp Hyd roller lifter (nice and quiet believe it or not)
4 8.175 pushrod roller iron comp (special order length after trial fit of kit rods of 8.225)
5 Steel retainer for Beehive springs 12
6 +.050 lock for 795 retainer 12
7 "BEEHIVE" SPRING FOR BUICK ROLLER CAMS
8 FREIGHT ON PURCHASE
9 REV XR2 210/215 Buick hyd roller cam Cam spec's
Lift on cam spec (.516) at stock ratio of 1:55 (.516 / 1.55 = .3329)
.516 lift on intake and exhaust with stock 1:55 ratio = .3329 lobe height on cam
.3329 x 1.65 = .5493 lift with 1:65 roller rockers

I checked (1) installed spring height location, came up with 1.70 using the tail end of a vernier caliper ( I need to get a valve spring mic gauge, but not sure which one to buy)

1.700 (closed valve spring length) - .5493 (valve travel) = 1.150 (open valve spring length)
I believe coil bind may be 1.140, but like I said I need to buy a more acurate gauge to measure the installed spring height.

Chuck

 

[pacecarta]

A
I may end up with the K-motion 750 springs, which have a shorter bind value over the beehives.

Chuck

if you're at 1.7o" installed (dont forget to subtract any shims or locator cups needed )... spring bind is at 1.14 (pac 1218 beehive) ...thats .560 lift before coil bind ... your cam is listed at .516" ( .549 with 1.65 rockers)

need to measure the available valve travel before keepers hit the the seals

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Well that's good news, so I did the math wrong on converting the ratio from 1:55 to 1:65.... on a 2nd look, I believe my math is ok...

 

[pacecarta]

your good if there isnt any shims or locators , but most locators are .060 so thats .500 available before bind , if thats the case forget about running 1.65 rockers with that cam

 

[SirVeyor]

I just bought the 210/215 cam kit from Mike at FTSpeed while at Norwalk. He mentioned 1.70 to 1.75 and being closer to 1.75 would be best. I am running 1.65 rockers and Champion Irons. Heads are being done now and plan to put them on later this summer. Good luck with your build.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I would have to machine the heads, to get the spring base lower. This would add to the closed valve spring length, to bad I don't run a cnc boring mill any longer. I don't want to cut the heads, worse case I'll get a smaller cam, since the one I have is toast...

 

[pacecarta]

heres the card on your current


i'd ditch the 1.65s on irons

 

[SirVeyor]

After reading everything here, I'm wondering if mine is going to work.

 

[pacecarta]

ive run bigger lift on irons (224 cam with .568 lift with 1.55s) but on those champion heads they were sent to Bison to handle the head prep and spring package. that setup went 9.90 137 first time out

on my 86 i run irons with the pac 1218 with the FTS 215/220 and 1.55s . that cam has .517/.530 lift at 1.55 and wouldnt be happy at all with 1.65s

even 8bolt gn1s need work to run over .550"

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

The K-motion 750 may also be the answer, when I bought the 1:65's roller rockers, nobody had any 1:55 in stock and me being impatient..
The thing is, they were in there for over 5 years and about 20,000 miles, but there is no denying the wear on the lobes, thinking at this point from spring bind.
Once I get everything back from the machine shop, I'm going to study this whole valve springs, vs. cam with an accurate method to measure the installed height.

I hear you Paul on the 1:65..... thanks for your help!

 

[bison]

Measure everything and don't accept anything less than the real indicated numbers. As far As the cam wear it's hard to visualize. Pics and an indicator going over the lobe in the problem area would show a lot more. Measuring installed height is very easy with an installed height checker. Just get one with range that will cover your approximate installed height. 140 on the seat is plenty for that cam even with 1.65 rockers. I commonly use 941 springs installed at 150 on the seat for most of the common roller lobes. You would be a little too close to coil bind with the 941's on those lobes and rockers if looking for 150 seat but 145ish should be fine. You won't/shouldn't be over 5600 with your combo unless your engine has the steam to push it past that in 3rd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[David Husek]

Post picture of the lobes. If you had the spring coil bind, you would bend push rods. What you are describing can be caused by the roller sliding/bouncing because of weak spring pressure over time. The 1218 pacs are too weak for your setup. Coil bind on that spring is 1.096 and I have measured them at 1.080. With Bee hives you can be at .040 from coil bind. You have plenty from coil bind if your installed height is 1.700 +-.010. The k750 will need to be installed at 1.650 at the min. You want to install these springs.060 from coil bind. When using k750 springs, I machine the head and install spring cups and use -.050 locks to achieve correct installed height. I also install light weight steel retainers. See picture. Champion uses a .060 shim instead. .550" lift is very common, the valve train just needs to be set up correctly.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Thanks for the reply's, I'll post pictures once I get over to the machine shop to pick up the components. The existing springs all tested within 3 lbs of each other 140 lbs at 1.700, the machine shop checked them last week. I'm ordering a spring height gauge, to check all the installed heights. I appreciate all the comments.

Chuck

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Didn't see these locators on the parts list. In the kit, but not listed? Is the head cut to locate the spring?
http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Spring Accessories'-0.aspx

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Hi Chuck,
That link shows me retainers, which go on top of the springs. The heads are Champion iron, and they don't have resest faces for the springs, as seen by the 1.70 approx install height.