Fragged another one - how long should they last?

[Mile Hi GN]

Flattened the 2 and 3 mains yesterday at the track. Caught it early, shut it off and had it towed in. Crank looks good, rods fine, should have the bullet back at the track in no time. Bone stock oiling and bottom end on the motor.

The motor had 4 years, 6,600 miles, and 51 full boogie 1/4 mile passes. Car is meticulously maintained and tuned. To my knowledge the car has never seen more than 3 degrees of retard in 3rd gear at the track. I'm the first guy to lift if the numbers don't look good down at the big end.

However, I leave the street tire, street fuel thing for the little boys and their Mustangs and Camaro's. When I'm at the track each pass has the same goal - a new all time best. I walk up the air and fuel until I tickle the knock sensor for that given day. It let go on a 25 PSI, 24 degrees of advance run. Shift points were at 5,200 with 5,200 RPM's showing in the traps. Pure 118 fuel, retard was 1.6 degrees at 81 MPH fading to 0 at 90 MPH.

My opinion is this is the nature of the game. These things don't last forever and if you are going to race them they are going to break. Breakage is as much a part of the car game as tires are. If you can't stand breakage - then collect stamps.

My trusted buddies have a different opinion - they suggest that despite the 1/4 mile passes a well tuned and maintained stock block should not of failed.

What is your opinion?

 

[U1ARUNIT]

Hi Lance!

Hey old buddy!

Sorry to hear that she is down on you. It sounds like you are keeping a positive outlook on things but I personally feel that it shouldn't have happened if everything was in tune as you indicated. I always like to hear those stories of 350+ 1/4 mile passes on a stock un-opened motor but like you say, you wanna play you gotta pay eventually. You didn't waste any time getting it torn apart at least.

What have you found that actually caused the (premature IMO) failure so you don't have to put a zipper on that oil pan?

Keep us posted!

 

[UNGN]

Are you going to rebuild it with a girdle?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Mile Hi GN
The motor had 4 years, 6,600 miles, and 51 full boogie 1/4 mile passes. Car is meticulously maintained and tuned. To my knowledge the car has never seen more than 3 degrees of retard in 3rd gear at the track. I'm the first guy to lift if the numbers don't look good down at the big end.

My opinion is this is the nature of the game. These things don't last forever and if you are going to race them they are going to break. Breakage is as much a part of the car game as tires are. If you can't stand breakage - then collect stamps.

My trusted buddies have a different opinion - they suggest that despite the 1/4 mile passes a well tuned and maintained stock block should not of failed.

What is your opinion?

Are the Big Ends still round?.
The stock K/S stuff is hardly something to fully rely on, IMO.
The stock O2 is nothing to rely on for tuning, again, IMO.

What does playing detective on the junk parts, say happened?.

What size injectors?.

 

[blackbuick87]

Maybe try steel caps?

I would try a different oil pump, high volume

What kind of oil?

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Re: Hi Lance!

Originally posted by U1ARUNIT
What have you found that actually caused the (premature IMO) failure so you don't have to put a zipper on that oil pan?

Hey Mark Looks like oil starvation. Stock, stock, stock on the bottom end. I think I just pounded the 2 and 3 mains into submission. Going to rework the front cover, high volume oil pump, etc. this time around.

Originally posted by UNGN
Are you going to rebuild it with a girdle?

No time. Our biggest race of the year is September 8th. Got to get it cleaned up and back to the track. Can't miss the big one

 

[Chuck Leeper]

mains gone??

Lance, are the shells loose in the bores?
Are the caps loose in the registers??
Have you had the webs crack checked??
What do the bores mike to when the caps are on the block w/out the brgs??
Sounds to me like the center of the block is "sagging" a bit w/ that much boost.
A girdle could help, once everything else is confirmed ok...
If you are gonna run it that hard, I'd look to see what the oiling mods could improve..
Are the brgs scored or pounded out of round??
Thrust ok??

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Re: Re: Fragged another one - how long should they last?

Originally posted by bruce
What size injectors?.

Hey Bruce. MSD 50's, O2's were 790 at the 2-3 shift dropping to the 760's in the traps. Showed a little retard in 3rd, 1.6 but it quickly went away. I did not lift.

Overall a fair pass, she just let go.

 

[strikeeagle]

Damn, Lance your car is slow...

You didn't say what your EGTs are???

If you want to go faster why don't you:

1. Get off that stupid mountain
2. Lose the DOTs
3. Lose the exhaust
4. Bolt on a set of heads
5. Bolt on a set of heads
6. Bolt on a set of, well, you get the idea

Hell, how many rebuilds would it take to buy a brand new pair of Champion aluminums???

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Originally posted by blackbuick87
What kind of oil?

Valvoline 10-30. Oil had 450 miles on it and 7 1/4 mile passes.

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
If you are gonna run it that hard, I'd look to see what the oiling mods could improve..

Hey Chuck, agreed, that we have time to do, with parts we can get or have.

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
Thrust ok??

That I can answer. The crank isn't walking a bit, thrust appears to be fine. The rest I can't answer, I had to work today and haven't been down at the shop. I'll find out.

Chuck - should it of lived, or do they break?

 

[Intercooler]

How about the caps? Were they walking? Any metal transfer?

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Hey Strike, how you been man

Originally posted by strikeeagle
Damn, Lance your car is slow...

I know, but I'm doing the best I can with the limited tools I have to work with.

You didn't say what your EGTs are???

There is a logical reason for that: I don't freakin know!! No EGT gauge.

1. Get off that stupid mountain

Agreed, I'll tell the wife and daughter we're packing up and moving close to a sea level track

2. Lose the DOTs

Thats not it - those "DOT's" are 11.5 ET Streets set at 13-14 PSI. 1.6 60's for those of you scoring at home.

3. Lose the exhaust

Been there, car doesn't pick up a bit when I open the dump.

4. Bolt on a set of heads
5. Bolt on a set of heads
6. Bolt on a set of, well, you get the idea

Easy...those are CNC'd Champion Race Ported Irons.

Hell, how many rebuilds would it take to buy a brand new pair of Champion aluminums???

It's not the economics. The new aluminum casting looks interesting. As for the old castings...I'll let you guys weld those up without me

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Block Party!!

lance said:
Chuck - should it of lived, or do they break?
Dey break!!!
I'd look REAL close if you are seeing the brgs pounded and not scored due to loss of oil film, then the oiling is most likely not the problem, but detonation, loose caps, stretched bolts, bent crank, etc, etc.. would be where I'd be looking...

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Re: Block Party!!

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
lance said:
Chuck - should it of lived, or do they break?
Dey break!!!

I agree! Fragging a motor is a mere flesh wound in the car game

 

[bruce]

Re: Re: Re: Fragged another one - how long should they last?

Originally posted by Mile Hi GN

Hey Bruce. MSD 50's, O2's were 790 at the 2-3 shift dropping to the 760's in the traps. Showed a little retard in 3rd, 1.6 but it quickly went away. I did not lift.

830s were 12.5:1 in my car, when I compared it to a WB.

Dropping O2s are a sigh you were going lean, and that will kill an engine.

You got a WB, Direct Scan, or EGT gauge?.
Having 2 or all 3 is really the way to go.

Just as a guess, I'd bet the injectors were static......

 

[bigz]

Lance,

Sorry to hear about your car, but I'm sure you'll get it back together before Pueblo. I really appreciate all of your help and letting me use your Nittos. I will have a set of ET streets next week and will definitely bring the good tires, pressure guage, and a jack next time the solid MAF pipe is also on the way. That short little ride we took in your car pointed me to where I want to be. See you in Pueblo.

Mike

 

[Mr URL]

Lance,

It shouldn't be doing that. My GN motor was one of the last factory crate short blocks from GM 6 years ago after I split the original litterly in half (before I knew what I was doing). This motor has been through more crap testing and tuning different things. Countless WOT runs and 6 transmission refreshes later. It now has over 50K miles and still going strong (knock on wood so far). It's been mostly run on pump gas and alchy injection. I know how careful you are tuning your car and you shouldn't be running into a short life motor.

I firmly believe the life span is all in how it was built considering there where no big oops in tune which I doubt you had. I've had so many rebuilt motors have short lives (bearings and rings going south). The motors that have lasted me the longest have been build by GM. The GM crate motor in my GN, the factory original motor in my T-Type, and GM ZZ4 crate engine in my Hurst Olds. All take some major abuse everytime I take them out and still run strong thousands of miles later.

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fragged another one - how long should they last?

Originally posted by bruce
Dropping O2s are a sigh you were going lean, and that will kill an engine.

Actually, if I had complete control, I would tune to flat 770 O2's. You aren't going to go anywhere with 820 O2's and 118 fuel. But the O2's bounce around, sort of a "range". I tune them a bit fat and then lean them down to where I want them. If I can stay within the 3 degree retard contraint, 760's or 770's is where my car likes them with the good stuff.

I was at +12% on WOT fueling with the T+/E, LS-1 MAF.

You got a WB, Direct Scan, or EGT gauge?.
Having 2 or all 3 is really the way to go.

Only one of the 3, Direct Scan v1.52. Cool toy BTW - love the scope view

Just as a guess, I'd bet the injectors were static......

Generally the duty cycle is in the mid 90's. I've got a couple of frames with a DC of 100%, usually at the top of each gear.

I am going to be disappointed if I am out of injector with the 50's and an 11.90 car. Heck I took the Blues to the low 12's. These 50's have to have more head room than 11.90 with a 3,625 Lb. GN. Don't folks scare the 10's with these injectors?

The pump on the other hand is a 4 year old XP with Volt Booster. Fuel pressure was 45 line off, pressure moves with boost. 45 line off and 25 PSI puts the 50's at the magic 70.

I think I remember a while back talk that the 50's kind of wig out at the magic 70 - maybe there is something there?

 

[Mr URL]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fragged another one - how long should they last?

Originally posted by bruce


Just as a guess, I'd bet the injectors were static......

I would doubt that. More like in the 80%-90% range.

 

[Mile Hi GN]

Originally posted by bigz
Lance,

Sorry to hear about your car, but I'm sure you'll get it back together before Pueblo. I really appreciate all of your help and letting me use your Nittos. I will have a set of ET streets next week and will definitely bring the good tires, pressure guage, and a jack next time the solid MAF pipe is also on the way. That short little ride we took in your car pointed me to where I want to be. See you in Pueblo.

Mike

Heck, pounding a couple of mains was nothing compared to Royal's (XLR8) 117 MPH. I am still talking to myself about that What a pass.

It was good to meet you Mike.

We'll do it again down at the Shootout