my dad recent upgraded our 84 Ttype to the 86/87 coil pack, since then, the car wont start, i tried multiple firing orders from the internet as well as the one on this site's sticky, so if anyone knows the correct routing for the plug wires it would be a big help. thanks.
firing/ cylinder order????
- Thread starter nickd2689
- Start date
Here is a pic you have probably seen
http://www.engraver1.com/help/coil.gif
that link is from the hotair sticky and is correct. On the ignition coil it doesn't really matter what side you put the 1-5-3 and the 4-2-6 on the ignition coil is a waste spark system and fires both the cylinders of the smaller coil block at the same time. For example 1 & 4 fire together. This fires 1 on the combustion and 4 on the exhaust. Completely burns the gas that way.
May check for spark at all. The wiring between the two ignition modules is different just so you know.
May also be a bad ground. Grounds through the ogniyion module bolts on the bottom.
Might add more later typing on the phone now.
Hope I'm right on most of that info if not jerryl, boost231, Charlief1 will correct me.
Good luck,
Jerry
http://www.engraver1.com/help/coil.gif
that link is from the hotair sticky and is correct. On the ignition coil it doesn't really matter what side you put the 1-5-3 and the 4-2-6 on the ignition coil is a waste spark system and fires both the cylinders of the smaller coil block at the same time. For example 1 & 4 fire together. This fires 1 on the combustion and 4 on the exhaust. Completely burns the gas that way.
May check for spark at all. The wiring between the two ignition modules is different just so you know.
May also be a bad ground. Grounds through the ogniyion module bolts on the bottom.
Might add more later typing on the phone now.
Hope I'm right on most of that info if not jerryl, boost231, Charlief1 will correct me.
Good luck,
Jerry
To be perfectly honest, my father is the one who did the conversion, (it is both of ours) and he says he doesn't remember. looking at it, the plug remains to the right (where it was before) and there is a thin plate between the coil and the module. ill have some time possibly tomorrow, if not, this upcoming week to take it off and check it out, ill take some pictures too so everyone has a better understanding of what he did. the funny thing is that ive been going to school to be a mechanic for 2 years, but when it comes to this car, I am lost lol.
coil adapter
You need this adapter for the 84-85 to 86-87 coils!!! There are only 3 wires that are the same-- a, b, and c I believe the others all go to different points-- that's why it won't start!!
http://www.installationinstructions.com/102084.pdf
You need this adapter for the 84-85 to 86-87 coils!!! There are only 3 wires that are the same-- a, b, and c I believe the others all go to different points-- that's why it won't start!!
http://www.installationinstructions.com/102084.pdf
Check out this link... it will show the difference between the 84-85 wiring and the 86-87 Harness wiring!!
http://www.installationinstructions.com/FYI/ccciwiringinfo.pdf
http://www.installationinstructions.com/FYI/ccciwiringinfo.pdf
Since the GN-Ttype site seems to be down here is more info...
C3I Ignition Module Swap for '84/85 Turbo Regals
David A. Arieno
C3I Ignition Module Connector Pin Out for using an '86/87 Module on an '84/85 Turbo Regal
IMPORTANT!![/B]
Study the attached "pin out" chart for '84-'85 C3I connector. Mark the current wires, (using small strips of masking tape), with their description and wire number! (You'll be amazed how much easier it'll be if you do!!!)
1. Gently pry the weather seals loose from the connector, sliding them down the harness approximately 2". Using a suitable pin removal tool, remove required metri-pack pins, pulling them forward through the connector. (Remember, pins "A", "B", and "C" remain the same, and don't need to be removed.)
2. I recommend that you purchase 15 or more new metri-pack pins (NAPA # 725189, 25 pins to a pack; also available through GM and Belden)
3. Remove pins from the wires. (Snip the wires as close to the pins as possible! )Pull the wire back through the connector and weatherseal.)
4. Arrange the wires as required and push them back through the rubber weather seal.(These hold seven wires each, and actually help hold things in proper order while you are reinstalling the pins).
5. Starting with pin "D" strip approximately 1/16" off the wire, and pull it through the metri-pack connector.
6. Carefully crimp the two rear tabs of a new metri-pack pin over the end of the insulation, then lightly solder the pin to the exposed copper wire. Gently crimp the remaining tabs over the solder joint.(Yes, it's a crimp type pin, but solder it anyway! It ensures you have the proper connection)
7. Gently pull the wire back into the metri-pack connector, ensuring that you have the
pin positioned properly. This should lock the pin into the connector.
8. Repeat with remaining pins.
9. Gently slide the weather seals up the wires toward the connector and push them into the connector. That should do it, clean and neat! I leave up to you to fabricate a suitable adapter mount plate. Start with a 4.5" by 6" piece of 1/16" plate.......
Alternate Method
-VERY IMPORTANT! -MARK ALL WIRES TO THE IGNITION MODULE CONNECTOR WITH TAPE.
Cut the wires on the harness outside metri-pack connector and splice the harness back together with shrink-butt crimp connectors. Soldering and heat shrink would also work.....BE CAREFUL! The harness wire length doesn't leave you much room for error.
1. Pin A: This pin remains the same. ("ECM B4 EST", white wire, #423)
2. Pin B: This pin remains the same. ("ECM D5 BYPASS", tan/black wire, #424)
3. Pin C: This pin remains the same. ("ECM B5 REF. LOW", purple/white wire, #430)
4. Pin D: Remove "TACH LEAD" (white wire, #121). Splice in "ECM B-3 REF. LOW", black/red wire, #453. [Previously located at pin F position!]
5. Pin E: Remove "ECM ALL CAM" (yellow wire, #951). Splice in "TACH LEAD",white wire, #121. [Previously located at pin D position!]
6. Pin F: Splice in" CRANK SENSOR B", green wire, #918 [Previously located at pin G position!]
7. Pin G: Splice in "CRANK SENSOR C GRND", black wire, #952. [Previously located in pin H position!]
8. Pin H: Splice in "CRANK SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. [Previously located in pin J position!]
9. Pin J: ( Pin I not used.) Splice in "ECM ALL CAM", yellow wire, #951. [Previously located in pin E position!]
10. Pin K: Splice in "CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL", blue lt wire, #917. [Previously located at pin L position!]
11. Pin L: Splice in "CAM SENSOR C GRND", black wire, #952. [Previously located at pin K position!]
12. Pin M: Remove "CAM SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. Splice in"IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #839. [Previously installed in pin P position!]
13. Pin N: Remove "IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #439. Splice in "CAM SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. [Previously installed in pin M position!]
14. Pin P: (Pin O not used.) Splice in "IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #439. [Previously located in pin N position!] That should do it! Plug it in, tighten it up, time for an ops check!!!!!!
1984-85 Turbo Regal C3I Ignition Module Connector Pinouts
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
E 951 ECM ALL CAM YELLOW
F 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
G 918 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL GREEN
H 952 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
J 916 CRANK SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
K 952 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK
L 917 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL BLUE LT
M 916 CAM SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
N 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
P 839 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
1986-87 Turbo Regal C3I Ignition Module Connector Pinouts
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
E 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
F 643 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL BLUE/WHITE
G 642 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
H 641 CRANK SENSOR A 10V+ BLACK/LT GREEN
J 630 ECM ALL CAM BLACK
K 633 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL BROWN/WHITE
L 632 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK/PINK
M 639 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
N 631 CAM SENSOR A 10V+ YELLOW
P 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
TURBO REGAL C3I IGNITION MODULE CONNECTOR PIN OUTS (CONTINUED)
HYBRID '84-'85 HARNESS CONNECTOR
USING '86-'87 IGNITION MODULE
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
E 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
F 918 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL GREEN
G 952 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
H 916 CRANK SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
J 951 ECM ALL CAM YELLOW
K 917 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL LT BLUE
L 952 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK
M 839 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
N 916 CAM SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
P 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
C3I Ignition Module Swap for '84/85 Turbo Regals
David A. Arieno
C3I Ignition Module Connector Pin Out for using an '86/87 Module on an '84/85 Turbo Regal
IMPORTANT!![/B]
Study the attached "pin out" chart for '84-'85 C3I connector. Mark the current wires, (using small strips of masking tape), with their description and wire number! (You'll be amazed how much easier it'll be if you do!!!)
1. Gently pry the weather seals loose from the connector, sliding them down the harness approximately 2". Using a suitable pin removal tool, remove required metri-pack pins, pulling them forward through the connector. (Remember, pins "A", "B", and "C" remain the same, and don't need to be removed.)
2. I recommend that you purchase 15 or more new metri-pack pins (NAPA # 725189, 25 pins to a pack; also available through GM and Belden)
3. Remove pins from the wires. (Snip the wires as close to the pins as possible! )Pull the wire back through the connector and weatherseal.)
4. Arrange the wires as required and push them back through the rubber weather seal.(These hold seven wires each, and actually help hold things in proper order while you are reinstalling the pins).
5. Starting with pin "D" strip approximately 1/16" off the wire, and pull it through the metri-pack connector.
6. Carefully crimp the two rear tabs of a new metri-pack pin over the end of the insulation, then lightly solder the pin to the exposed copper wire. Gently crimp the remaining tabs over the solder joint.(Yes, it's a crimp type pin, but solder it anyway! It ensures you have the proper connection)
7. Gently pull the wire back into the metri-pack connector, ensuring that you have the
pin positioned properly. This should lock the pin into the connector.
8. Repeat with remaining pins.
9. Gently slide the weather seals up the wires toward the connector and push them into the connector. That should do it, clean and neat! I leave up to you to fabricate a suitable adapter mount plate. Start with a 4.5" by 6" piece of 1/16" plate.......
Alternate Method
-VERY IMPORTANT! -MARK ALL WIRES TO THE IGNITION MODULE CONNECTOR WITH TAPE.
Cut the wires on the harness outside metri-pack connector and splice the harness back together with shrink-butt crimp connectors. Soldering and heat shrink would also work.....BE CAREFUL! The harness wire length doesn't leave you much room for error.
1. Pin A: This pin remains the same. ("ECM B4 EST", white wire, #423)
2. Pin B: This pin remains the same. ("ECM D5 BYPASS", tan/black wire, #424)
3. Pin C: This pin remains the same. ("ECM B5 REF. LOW", purple/white wire, #430)
4. Pin D: Remove "TACH LEAD" (white wire, #121). Splice in "ECM B-3 REF. LOW", black/red wire, #453. [Previously located at pin F position!]
5. Pin E: Remove "ECM ALL CAM" (yellow wire, #951). Splice in "TACH LEAD",white wire, #121. [Previously located at pin D position!]
6. Pin F: Splice in" CRANK SENSOR B", green wire, #918 [Previously located at pin G position!]
7. Pin G: Splice in "CRANK SENSOR C GRND", black wire, #952. [Previously located in pin H position!]
8. Pin H: Splice in "CRANK SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. [Previously located in pin J position!]
9. Pin J: ( Pin I not used.) Splice in "ECM ALL CAM", yellow wire, #951. [Previously located in pin E position!]
10. Pin K: Splice in "CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL", blue lt wire, #917. [Previously located at pin L position!]
11. Pin L: Splice in "CAM SENSOR C GRND", black wire, #952. [Previously located at pin K position!]
12. Pin M: Remove "CAM SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. Splice in"IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #839. [Previously installed in pin P position!]
13. Pin N: Remove "IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #439. Splice in "CAM SENSOR A 12V", white/red wire, #916. [Previously installed in pin M position!]
14. Pin P: (Pin O not used.) Splice in "IGNITION POWER", pink/black wire, #439. [Previously located in pin N position!] That should do it! Plug it in, tighten it up, time for an ops check!!!!!!
1984-85 Turbo Regal C3I Ignition Module Connector Pinouts
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
E 951 ECM ALL CAM YELLOW
F 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
G 918 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL GREEN
H 952 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
J 916 CRANK SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
K 952 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK
L 917 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL BLUE LT
M 916 CAM SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
N 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
P 839 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
1986-87 Turbo Regal C3I Ignition Module Connector Pinouts
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
E 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
F 643 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL BLUE/WHITE
G 642 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
H 641 CRANK SENSOR A 10V+ BLACK/LT GREEN
J 630 ECM ALL CAM BLACK
K 633 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL BROWN/WHITE
L 632 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK/PINK
M 639 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
N 631 CAM SENSOR A 10V+ YELLOW
P 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
TURBO REGAL C3I IGNITION MODULE CONNECTOR PIN OUTS (CONTINUED)
HYBRID '84-'85 HARNESS CONNECTOR
USING '86-'87 IGNITION MODULE
PIN WIRE # DESCRIPTION WIRE COLOR
A 423 ECM B4 EST WHITE
B 424 ECM D5 BYPASS TAN/BLACK
C 430 ECM B5 REF. HIGH PURPLE/WHITE
D 453 ECM B3 REF. LOW BLACK/RED
E 121 TACH LEAD WHITE
F 918 CRANK SENSOR B SIGNAL GREEN
G 952 CRANK SENSOR C GRND BLACK
H 916 CRANK SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
J 951 ECM ALL CAM YELLOW
K 917 CAM SENSOR B SIGNAL LT BLUE
L 952 CAM SENSOR C GRND BLACK
M 839 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
N 916 CAM SENSOR A 12V WHITE/RED
P 439 IGNITION POWER PINK/BLACK
this is what you need.
billygeg
Member
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2009
firing order
Whats up guys
It does look like he is using the original 84/85 ign module. If you look at the pics again there is a adapter screwed to the module to fit the smaller 86/87 coil pack. So if thats the case he shouldnt need to change the wire config to the ign module should he? I just did the entire swap and the 86/87 coil pack will work (even so it doesnt fit) on the 84/85 ign module and via versa. I tried it out just for sh*ts and giggles and it did start the car. I think he has it right. There is a probably a problem somewhere else.
Whats up guys
It does look like he is using the original 84/85 ign module. If you look at the pics again there is a adapter screwed to the module to fit the smaller 86/87 coil pack. So if thats the case he shouldnt need to change the wire config to the ign module should he? I just did the entire swap and the 86/87 coil pack will work (even so it doesnt fit) on the 84/85 ign module and via versa. I tried it out just for sh*ts and giggles and it did start the car. I think he has it right. There is a probably a problem somewhere else.
wow, thats alot of info, that helps alot, the very first thing i noticed is that in my pictures the dk blue wire from the module to the coil is reversed from the diagram you attached, second, does it look like I have the 86/87 coil? I think after i figure this out, the car will at least run, but this info was a major help, I cant thank you all enough. ill have more time over the weekend to mess with it, so ill post back, in the meantime please let me know if this looks like the 86/87 coil. thank you!
billygeg
Member
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2009
why did you change the coil? Were you not getting spark before? I recently had the same problem. It turned out to be my ignition switch but that might not be the case with you. It could be a bad ignition module, crank sensor, or the cam sensor I believe. Also make sure all your fuses are good and your getting power the computer. I recently bought mine and to me these cars are a bit tricky with all the sensors so dont let it get you down. You will find it.
Post what you find.
Bill
we were getting spark but it was still running rough, high idle, stalls under load, anyway; my father changed the coil pack because instead of diagnosing the problem, he just throws parts. earlier in the thread there is the correct wiring from the coil to the module, on mine the dk blue wires are reversed from the diagram, would this cause it not to start? i believe my fuses are good, but im not sure about the computer, when i put a paper clip in the DLC the check engine light will flash for a second and then stay on, so I cant get codes, but im not sure if it was the top right or top left i was supposed to pin, i think i may have done both (it was a while ago that i checked for codes) so hopefully i didnt blow the PCM.
billygeg
Member
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2009
The wiring looks right to me...Yellow Green blue, then the three blues attached together on the other side. I believe everyone is thinking that your dad changed the coil pack and ignition module. I dont believe he did. If you look at the pics you posted it looks like he replaced the coil pack and added a adapter that will make the smaller 86/87 coil pack fit on the older larger ign module. So dont change any wiring or run out and buy a caspers ignition wire kit just yet. I'm still a newbie and can be wrong (as I often am) but I dont think so in this case. Did he buy the coil new? If not, If you still have the old coil change it back and see what happens. If you dont, I would first check all fuses.. If the fuses are good then follow the no spark link in the Sticky Thread. The two pins you are supposed to short to get codes are A&B on the ALDL they are the top right two pins..Try it again and see if you get codes..If you still get the same thing you mentioned there may be a problem with the ecm or the wiring to the ecm.
Post and let me know how you make out
Good Luck!
Post and let me know how you make out
Good Luck!
BRAD_PADGETT
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
I agree here. Check this out first. Brad
X2... most of us change theign module as well... I have read about that adapter plate before, but that was a long time ago. Make sure the wiring is like the pdf file I sent from Casper's- I can't post it on here.
This link might work...
http://www.installationinstructions.com/102086.pdf
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