DFI 7.0 vs TEC vs FAST

[gta324]

Opps....

Correction- FAST bank-bank system use knocksensor!
The only thing missing in FAST seems to be TCC control.......

/N.

 

[TurboJim]

I cant speak for the DFI, you'll haveta get info from another user, but the FAST:

Can have bank to bank or sequential injection
If bank to bank you get cooling fan control, fuel pump control, and knock control. In sequential you have fuel pump control, individual cylinder correction, NOS control (wet or dry).A DOS based or Windows based interface. Help is pretty good. I actually wrote a nicer more complete help file, but I havent had Lance's approval yet so its not official.

Do you need bank to bank or sequential? Hmm..tough call. Most of the people I know run a Bank system. I think it depends on how hard you're gonna be pushing the injectors. I read somewhere, maybe Accels website, in a bank system, of you're close to 100% DC then the unit gets real hot and can shut down as the drivers overheat (6 or 8 injectors being opened staticly) but the sequentials in that case run significantly cooler as it is only opening one injector at a time. Add to that it must inject at least a little more accurately (less wasted fuel sitting behind a closed valve) but its like $500 more. My car has a B2B with WBO2 in it and I have it running pretty well. I dont want to spend a whole bunch of time tuning it right now because I have another motor going together (if it ever gets done) and tuning will start all over at that time.

The FASTs editing interface I think is excellent, although I wish there were more hotkeys, or a way to navigate the windows version with the keyboard. I think its a pain in the a$$ to reach over while driving and navigate the file menu's with the mouse/touchpad. It would be nicer to have the features of the windows version, with the navigation of the DOS version in one package.

I dont think you can go wrong with either unit. I was working on a TCC control, but never finished it. Then I heard Caspers was working on the same thing..so why bother. Basically, under 25% load in 3rd or 4th gears my box would count to 5 and lock the converter. Once you downshifted to 2nd or went above ~25% throttle (TPS ~1.7v), it would unlock. Of course the Gen7 has this built in, and more refined than mine

 

[gta324]

I was thinking...Is it possible to let the stock ECM control the TCC and then have FAST unit to control the engine?

Next thing is the price.......

Fast bank-bank + WB02 and ev. a TCC control?

7.0+ knock sensor harness+WB02+ TCC control harness?

Does they use GM sensors?

The car is a TPI -89........

 

[TurboJim]

I believe theyboth use GM sensors. I dont know about piggybacking the stock ECU. I guess it might work, but isnt that a waste? Why not just leave the stock ECU in it and learn to edit the prom? I dont know how much power you're planning to make, but the stock ECU might work fine for you.

 

[Scott231]

The problem there Jim, is that he is not running a Turbo Buick. As such, I'd bet most of us would not be able to help with tuning his 89 TPI ECU.

Both the DFI, the FAST (and the TEC) use GM style sensors.

There are aftermarket TCC controllers available from Jeg's...and of course you could always add a manual switch for less than $10.

I'm still waiting for Jack to respond about the Gen 7 box for the turbo Regals....

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Scott231
The problem there Jim, is that he is not running a Turbo Buick. As such, I'd bet most of us would not be able to help with tuning his 89 TPI ECU.

Maybe not, but with the help of the GM_ECM list I'm sure he could do it in no time. With the likes of GMEPro (Terry Kelly is a board member here as well... real real nice guy), Tunercat, and that editor from Arizone Speed/Machine...I forget its title, he could edit just about anything he wanted in english, without knwoing formulas etc.

I'm still waiting for Jack to respond about the Gen 7 box for the turbo Regals....

Me too....

 

[gta324]

I'm a member over at thirdgen and there is a lot of info about PROM burning. I tested my car yesterday and my MAF reaches the limit (255gr/sek) at 3700 rpm so I'll guess EFI is the way to go...............

My car is a daily driven so its a must with good and steady idle and nice cruise/part throttle reaction! And when i WOT is should do like Hell............I've spent a fortune in my engine right now and I cant get it to run like i would, so I must invest in a EFI system............

Then I really like the WB02 option..........Here in sweden I havent found any Dyno shop that has the ability to tune with WB02.......

By the way there arent any tuners here who would like to tune a american car, It's all BMW/supras/Audi/volvos and SAAB over here

Is it possible to have the stock ECM left to control TCC, AC clutch, AIR divertor and such stuff??????

 

[aDFIguy]

FastTrack Performance

http://www.fasttrackperformance.com

They sell "piggyback" harnesses that allow your aftermarket system to control fuel/spark/whatever... while still keeping your stock PCM in place to control trans, dashboard... and everything else that the aftermarket ECM has no control over. They should be able to hook you up with a harness for both a DFI or Fast, depending on which way you end up going.

 

[JayC]

Although Im not advocating one system over another, moving from vehicle to vehicle with a FAST unit is not really a big deal. You can basically change your operation parameters and if you had a good working program to start with, the vehicle should start and run and be close enough to get in the ballpark pretty quickly.

I don't have any experience with the Gen 7 system yet but since we need some features that we can't get from FAST for Scott's twin car, we are looking at switching the FAST system over to a Gen 7 box so hopefully I will have a chance to tinker with one soon.

 

[Racetronix]

The Gen 7 has advanced setups for TCC control based on RPM load and delta TPS.
A/C control is built in to the Gen 7 as well as fuel and spark rev limiting, shift light output, two step launch control, SES light output, fan, fuel pump, 3-stage NOS (which can be used to control other things based on TPS, MAP and RPM). The Gen 7 supports regular narrow band 02s as well as wide band O2s with external hardware.
Individual cylinder fuel trim tables (RPM vs. MAP) are standard as well as TAU maps.

The Gen 7 will not control EGR, purge canisters or air pumps.

To run sequential you would need a dedicated harness to the injectors as your car is not wired for that. Racetronix manufactures adapter harnesses for both the Accel and FAST products:

http://www.racetronix.com/images/FAST_Harness/RX-FAST-Adapter_Harness_Package.jpg

Jack
Racetronix

 

[S2V6RACER]

Sounds like the Gen 7 is more taylored for a street/strip car than a pure race car.

Which is right for you will depend on the application. I don't think the Gen 7 warrants selling your FAST system, especially if it's all dialed in.

As far as the password protection, I think that's a cool feature, but obviously based more on the vendors/tuners best interest than the customers.

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Ted A.
Sounds like the Gen 7 is more tailored for a street/strip car than a pure race car...

Why would you make a statement like that?

The Gen 7 is in some 6 second turbo Mustangs right now among some other very fast cars. The Gen 7 is equally capable in a street driven daily driver as it is in a 2000+ HP race car.

Having more features, outputs and MAPs than some other brands does not make it any less capable ... actually more!

Jack
Racetronix

 

[gta324]

Thanks alot guys!

However, with both units I have to keep the stock in to control EGR, A/C and so on............

And If I anyway must keep the stock ECM why not let It control TCC?

Anyway I should look it to the price of these to products, anyone know a good website to find prices.

And I will also need a interface harness that allows me to let my stock ECM control some functions and the guys at fasttrack can fix this for me, right?

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by gta324
Thanks alot guys!

However, with both units I have to keep the stock in to control EGR, A/C and so on............

And If I anyway must keep the stock ECM why not let It control TCC?

Anyway I should look it to the price of these to products, anyone know a good website to find prices.

And I will also need a interface harness that allows me to let my stock ECM control some functions and the guys at fasttrack can fix this for me, right?

No, the Gen 7 will control A/C.
You do not want the stock computer to control TCC as you will not be able to make adjustments as to when it should engage properly. The other problem is that you would have to piggyback the systems together, which creates other complications as some sensor outputs can NOT be shared. The factory system would need to maintain these inputs to improperly control the EGR and TCC. These would require some redundant sensors to be installed. If you car was not set up for FI but rather NA and you intend to run both systems there will be even further complications. It is best to get rid of the factory ECU if possible.

FYI a TTA or TR can easily pass emissions without a functional EGR and in some cases even without a catalytic converter. This is based on personal hands on experience.

Racetronix can quote you on both systems and a custom harness as we are dealers for both Accel and FAST and sponsor TB.com.

Our harnesses are a bit more money than some others but then they are much more complex, provide more user accessible outputs and are of much higher quality as can be seen in the link above. Multi-conductor shielded cable, custom circuit boards, output taps, soldered and heat shrunk connections are all standard features of a Racetronix harness.

Jack
Racetronix
www.racetronix.com

 

[gta324]

OK.........

Leaning towards the 7.0 as it seem so be able to control TCC and A/C.

If I go for the FAST it seems to be more complicated.

However I must look in to the price of these two products!

Hopfully I'll have my car running well next year...............

Racetronics I'll contact you!

/n.

 

[Glen]

Why not use an aftermarket controller for the TCC. TCI and B&M both make one based on vacuum. Second question is..... FAST and Accel are both speed density, your current setup is MAF. Will the stock ecm still control your desired funstions while in limp mode, since disabling the MAF will set the SES lite. Depending on the level of modifications and the desire to be legal, I would think the best approach would be using the stock ECM. If your MAF is pegged at 255 gpm at such a low RPM, have it checked. There is also someone currently working on a translator to use the latemodel MAF from the LT1 on the older L98 motors. Turbo City has the software to adjust the stock ECM. MAF is the more accurate way to measure air flow, but needs a wide LDA, they do not like overlap. Using the TPI limits RPM potential as well as camshaft duration. If you want over 224 @ .050 consider the TPIS MiniRam.

 

[gta324]

. Depending on the level of modifications and the desire to be legal, I would think the best approach would be using the stock ECM. If your MAF is pegged at 255 gpm at such a low RPM, have it checked.

The thing I dont like about PROM burning is the thing you cant do "online" changes......

My MAF is fine.

The things you said about SES light Iäve totaly missed, I'll have to check this up!

Maybe PROMburning is the right way?? I dont know, I'm very confused....

My car idles rough and the fuel is not right and i'll need bigger injectors too, so I must change the Ve tables somehow.....

 

[TimChiaretto]

Jack, a few questions if I may?

You said:
"The other problem is that you would have to piggyback the systems together, which creates other complications as some sensor outputs can NOT be shared."

Can you tell me which sensors can't be piggy backed. I was hoping to be able to splice into the original harness on my LT1 so the smog boys could see the output of my OBDII and pass me when it comes time for the smog check that we Californians have to suffer through. Thanks.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by gta324


The thing I dont like about PROM burning is the thing you cant do "online" changes......

My friend John Spina from Caspers Electronics has a really neat emulator/burner. He plugs it into the ECM, makes all the changes he wants in real time. You change a value, hit enter, the car sputters a sec, and the cal is changed. Once perfect, he pulls the emulator, connects it to his PC and saves the file, or hell, burns the cal in the car, pops the emulator out and puts the chip in.

His emulator/burner I think he said was ~$1400. A hypertech chip (to swipe the piggyback module) might set you back another $100, or you could make an adapter etc..etc...just something so you can change chips when you need an update...

Anyway, you'd be somewhere around $1500 this way, TOPS, be able to adjust your calibration as you see fit. Not lose TCC, emissions, VATS (if equipped) etc..etc..etc.

If you went with the intronics pocket programmer and their matching emulator, you'd be in for under $500.

Only thing you'd lose was time learning the cal and knowing WHAT to touch, and how MUCH to touch it. I suggest, before you make a decision, you subscribe to the GM_ECM mailing list and read some info, ask questions, and most of all, read their archives. Theres a whol LOAD of info there. http://www.diy-efi.org

Check it out.

 

[gta324]

I've done that.......

I the thing I want to do now is find out how much the systems costs.

PROM burning I'll still have the 255g/sek limit for now.........