Converter blow through

Mad_Trbo

Active Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
What exactly does it mean to blow through the converter?

I was doing some wide open pulls last night and the car is shifting hard from 1st to 2nd to 3rd but in 2nd gear it almost feels like a manual car when the clutch fails and slips.


Not a tranny guy, but I figure I need to check pressure at WOT check the fluid for burned smell etc...

Just wondering what might be happening if it is even tranny related.
 
When you drive over the converter you will get no rpm drop or very little rpm drop on ratio change.
 
Seems to be a match

When you drive over the converter you will get no rpm drop or very little rpm drop on ratio change.

Yep seems to be an issue, looking at this log one might think I am not changing gears.

Now for the lesson, what causes this? Can't wait to see how much this issue is going to cost.

:biggrin:
 

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Yep seems to be an issue, looking at this log one might think I am not changing gears.

Now for the lesson, what causes this? Can't wait to see how much this issue is going to cost.

:biggrin:

I dont even need to look at the log to know the problem and im not even goign to look. Reading your sig tells it all. The AC converter is flashing so high you arent able to get it to couple with your power. What causes it is the engines torque coupled with an improperly spec'd converter. If you were revving to 7000 the converter you have would probably work ok. But it looks like you should be shifting around 6200-6300. Your car is screaming for a 9.5" PTC. Let me know if your interested. You will likely pick up 3-4mph on your trap speed changing converters. What springs are on your heads?
 
More Information

I dont even need to look at the log to know the problem and im not even goign to look. Reading your sig tells it all. The AC converter is flashing so high you arent able to get it to couple with your power. What causes it is the engines torque coupled with an improperly spec'd converter. If you were revving to 7000 the converter you have would probably work ok. But it looks like you should be shifting around 6200-6300. Your car is screaming for a 9.5" PTC. Let me know if your interested. You will likely pick up 3-4mph on your trap speed changing converters. What springs are on your heads?

Ok sense I am here, I can't go through my third torque converter without learning something. I am most interested in getting my combination correct, so let me know what you can do or what you suggest. At the same time it would be great if you could direct me to some official literature where I can read and gain a better understanding through meaningful questions.

Are you saying that the flash stall on the converter I have which is an "O" is to high for my build.

224/224 cam
4.1 stroked to 3.625
and then the rest of the build listed below.
 
Ok sense I am here, I can't go through my third torque converter without learning something. I am most interested in getting my combination correct, so let me know what you can do or what you suggest. At the same time it would be great if you could direct me to some official literature where I can read and gain a better understanding through meaningful questions.

Are you saying that the flash stall on the converter I have which is an "O" is to high for my build.

224/224 cam
4.1 stroked to 3.625
and then the rest of the build listed below.

I dont have any literature but if you read my posts about torque converters you will see a lot of data about the PTC 9.5". The have custom stators that are machined per application and run with various pumps at various clearances to achieve desired effects. What they have done is make it so small ci turbocharged engines that have little torque off boost still spool large turbos and at the same time have them couple really well up top to give the best of both worlds. The AC will spool a large turbo fast but it will not couple in a high cylinder pressure application like a hyd cammed high boost turbo engine which is exactly what we have. Your flash stall is based on the converter design and the torque out put of the engine. Not one or the other by themself. Your flash stall is definitely too high. It should be around 5400-5500@25psi in your combo. You should easily be able to run 9.50's at those boost pressures. If you wanted to run it at 30psi id want it spec'd so it still flashed to around 5500. You have to be specific about the boost pressure for an accurate spec since it will change the engines torque a lot. Ill send you a PM.
 
Springs

Springs running - are a 26926 with seat load of 129 lbs @1.835 and 470 lbs @ 1.160.

I read somewhere recently there are some who don't like a dual spring for high RPMS. So we'll see how this works.

So far so good.
 
Yep seems to be an issue, looking at this log one might think I am not changing gears.

Now for the lesson, what causes this? Can't wait to see how much this issue is going to cost.

:biggrin:

I can't see the log. What was the shift rpm?

Bison summed it up. You have an engine that is making more torque than the converter is able to couple. If the engine made less power or turned a higher rpm, the converter would perform better.

What causes the problem is converter design. The 9" isn't able to couple well at high hp applications when shifting under 6000 rpm. For example, if you shift at 6000 and it drops to 5800, you would need to shift around 6600 to make that converter work for the current power level. Apply more power to it and it gets looser again.

Same thing goes for any converter. As it gets looser down low to spool the larger turbo, the rpm range of the engine must be increased to make up for it. What PTC and I have done is designed a converter (9.5 non lock) that is as loose down low as some of the older converters like yours but will couple at a lower rpm giving the Buick more efficiency at a lower rpm.
 
Springs running - are a 26926 with seat load of 129 lbs @1.835 and 470 lbs @ 1.160.

I read somewhere recently there are some who don't like a dual spring for high RPMS. So we'll see how this works.

So far so good.

Springs should be ok but id shim them for more seat pressure. Looks like you have a lot of room before you hit coil bind.
 
More information

Dusty -

Shift point is 5200

So the issue I am facing is similar to that of a slipping clutch?? Would that be close to a correct description.

Is there anything I can look into that will yield me a better understanding of why this happens?


My understanding so far is the fin design of the impellar / stator / turbine controls where maximum coupling of the engine and tranny. Depending on this design slip occurs allowing the engine RPM to reach a certain point for turbo spool. This is good for elimination of lag. But with the design of my converter the negative side I have to shift at elevated RPM's in order for the converter to remain coupled or operate most efficiently with minimum slip and maximum transfer of power from the enging to the wheels. For some reason at my power level and shift point the fluid coupling is not maximized. End result power transference is lost.

I would love to learn why this is happening, more specifics.


Do you have any clue at what power levels this starts happening? I am at 16 lbs.

Further more how much of a window do you have with spec'ing out a converter.

My goals are around 23 - 25 lbs boost max, but if I run the car at 16 lbs how will this effect the performance of the converter or will I need a different converter for say the 16 lbs and then max effort 25 lbs?
 
Dusty -

Shift point is 5200

So the issue I am facing is similar to that of a slipping clutch?? Would that be close to a correct description.

Is there anything I can look into that will yield me a better understanding of why this happens?


My understanding so far is the fin design of the impellar / stator / turbine controls where maximum coupling of the engine and tranny. Depending on this design slip occurs allowing the engine RPM to reach a certain point for turbo spool. This is good for elimination of lag. But with the design of my converter the negative side I have to shift at elevated RPM's in order for the converter to remain coupled or operate most efficiently with minimum slip and maximum transfer of power from the enging to the wheels. For some reason at my power level and shift point the fluid coupling is not maximized. End result power transference is lost.

I would love to learn why this is happening, more specifics.


Do you have any clue at what power levels this starts happening? I am at 16 lbs.

Further more how much of a window do you have with spec'ing out a converter.

My goals are around 23 - 25 lbs boost max, but if I run the car at 16 lbs how will this effect the performance of the converter or will I need a different converter for say the 16 lbs and then max effort 25 lbs?

Yes, a slipping clutch would be a good comparison.

Your shift point of 5200 is much lower than it should be and is not helping. With your combination 5800-6000 would be a good area to start. For example, if your not seeing any rpm drop at all shifting at 5200, you might see 600 rpm drop when shifting at 6000. This is at your current boost level. It does look like your on the edge of pushing through it anyway so increasing the boost from 16psi to 24psi will most likely put you back into more slip.

The converter stall will change with the amount of torque applied to it. Your engine makes more torque than a stock cube, stock stroke engine so from the very beginning your stall speed will increase. It's always give and take with converters. If you need more stall rpm to spool the turbo, you will loose efficiency. Raise the stall speed 400 rpm down low and you will loose nearly that much drop at the gear change. The only way to offset this is to go 400 rpm higher on the shift rpm. The 9.5 has changed this somewhat because I can get it loose down low but not loose efficiency but there is still a point where the rpm range/camshaft and the turbo size need to work together to make converter selection easier.

The point which you begin to push through a converter will vary from engine to engine. As you apply more power, it will want to slip more.

Best thing to do is spec a converter for the max effort. It will be tighter at a lower boost level but that's just the nature of what your dealing with. Such as a nitrous converter. People constantly order converters for a 400 shot of nitrous and then wonder why it's so tight on the 150 shot. It's because the stall will change with torque applied to it.

However, the 9.5 non lock does give me a pretty wide range. Even if I spec it on the loose side, it's hard to drive through even the loosest of them.
 
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