Aluminum VS HE 3 row radiator

[Mac]

Guys,

I've searched the archives to get educated on radiators and I'm still unclear which is better. What advantages is there in going with the Summit univeral aluminum radiator besides weight? Cost from Summit is around $200 and the HE 3 row is $180. Is there a big cooling difference between the two? I'm installing a V-2, Spal-fans, and seperate oil and tranny coolers.

On a side note, I've talked with several people about this and some say aluminum desipates heat better and some say it takes longer for aluminum to cool off.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

In the real world alum radiators cool much better

 

[Buick Beginner]

Mac - Here's my .02

I just finished a world of headaches trying to research the whole thing; Copper vs Aluminum vs this and that, what a lot of information! If you'd like me to save you some time and effort here goes: Copper disapates heat better than aluminum, BUT a typical copper/brass radiator isn't all copper. It is, in fact, copper brass and lead. Therefore, enter aluminum. Aluminum used in a radiator core is, indeed, all aluminum, running second only to copper itself in the heat disapation department. Moreover, lighter in weight. O.K., now are you convinced you need aluminum? If you need more convincing just ask yourself this: when was the last time I saw a copper/brass/lead racing radiator for sale at my local speed shop? It's always aluminum right? O.K. next up, the cheapest aluminum radiator I can get? Summit racing - part number sum-380331 = $179.00. It's a 2 row with no oil cooling provisions. Griffin radiator through Summit racing - part number gr1-1-25272-x = $189.00. Also a 2 row with no oil coolers. Now, here's where it get interesting. GM now makes a replacement radiator for the 1987 Buick Regal, (and other G-body cars), that is aluminum with plastic end tanks. Cost? $151.00 from GM parts direct. However, in doing some more homework I found a place that sells new radiators cheaper than that, radiator.com. Call them and tell the salesman you want GM part number 52481615. It's a direct replacement radiator for our cars. It's a 2 row aluminum unit with plastic end tanks, it has provisions for a tranny cooler but the lines will have to be slightly modified. Price? $105.00 plus shipping. Hope that helps. There are some fresh posts lurking about if you need more reading. Dog-Gone thats a mouth full. - BB

 

[Mac]

Buick Beginner,

Thanks for the great explanation. I did some research on the net and found this on Griffin's website:



GRIFFIN™ manufactures both aluminum and copper brass radiators. Each alloy has its own strengths and appropriate applications.

Copper is a good heat conductor, but solder required to bond the tubes to fin creates an insulation point that prevents some heat transfer. Aluminum tubes are welded rather than soldered to the aluminum tanks, providing a more efficient conductor for cooling efficiency.

The strength of the materials is one difference between aluminum and copper. The copper tubes carrying the coolant must be very thin to keep a copper brass radiator cooling efficiently. Since copper is relatively weak, the tubes must be narrow in order to prevent the internal pressure from swelling or exploding. Aluminum is much stronger, allowing the use of considerably wider tubes. Wider tubes allow more direct contact between the fins and the tube, increasing the radiator’s capacity to dissipate heat away from the engine.

Aluminum radiators are commonly recommended and preferred for the demands of high performance applications.

Another important benefit of aluminum is its resistance to damage. GRIFFIN™ goes the extra mile to build a rugged, durable, high performance radiator. Every GRIFFIN™ radiator is reinforced with a special high temperature epoxy, which provides additional tube to header strength and assists in the prevention of vibration failure. This process is Q1 approved by Ford Motor Company, one of the toughest quality standards in the industry.

For more detailed information follow the link:
http://www.griffinrad.com/whyaluminum.htm

 

[Reaper]

2 words.. NICK MICALE. do a search!



most of the AZ buick guys from the 13s to the 10s all run his high eff. rad. i run no hotter then about 175 with the AC on in traffic on a 110 degree day!


nuff said go with a HE 3 row!

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Grim Reaper
2 words.. NICK MICALE. do a search!



most of the AZ buick guys from the 13s to the 10s all run his high eff. rad. i run no hotter then about 175 with the AC on in traffic on a 110 degree day!


nuff said go with a HE 3 row!

Agreed!

As a past/ex griffin rad owner, about all I can add is, all the theory sounds just fine, it's reality and the real world that sets them all apart.

The biggest problem with the Griffins, and I suspect many other alluminum "performance" radiators is, that I think there designers must have gotten bit by the "bigger/more is better" bug.

Take a CLOSE look at the fins per inch count on the griffins and other HP aluminum rads. You'll find that the fins per inch count is EXTREMELY high, making them a very dense core. This radically impares air flow through the core, radically reducing it's recovery ability, and several other key parameters.

Not only could I not run my A/C but couldn't even run it on the highway Once the car got hot, it couldn't recover (after shutting off the A/C)

That high fin count might be just great for a Cup Car running around the track at over 160mph (which is what they were originally designed for), but not so great for a daily street driver.

Do your homework, don't just rely on the theory of why aluminum "should" be better. It is better in the right applications, but ours isn't that.

Once I dumped the Griffin and went to a HE 3 row, my heating problems were all but erased.

 

[Grumpy]

hmmmm TTA's had an alum radiator stock...NEVER had a problem with it.. We also ran it in 2 of our Buicks will no problems.

 

[Nick Micale]

I have replaced a couple TTA stock alum radiators with our HE 3-row core, and they ran cooler here in the desert.

 

[larry33kc]

Hey Nick how much for one of your radiators, and does it have the trans., and oil coolers in it to. TIA

 

[Grumpy]

Nick we dont live in the desert. althought we did just get 24"s of snow...an thats on top of 2' that was allready there ....so I guess if your not a "New Englander" you need somethin better!!! now send us some of that HEAT

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Grumpy
hmmmm TTA's had an alum radiator stock...NEVER had a problem with it.. We also ran it in 2 of our Buicks will no problems.

You'll notice in my thread, I didn't say anything about TTA aluminum radiators. I know nothing of their construction. I do however know a little about aftermarket aluminum's (precisely Griffin's). That's what my post refered to.

Fin count is the key!!! Get it too dense and you're in trouble.

Nick and his crew know a thing or two about keeping Turbo Buicks and TTA's running cool. They do, afterall, have to keep things cool out there in the 115º+ Arizona heat

As I stated earlier. Switching from the Griffin to a HE 3 row (sorry Nick, mine was an over the counter item) was the best thing I ever did.

 

[Buick Beginner]

Just figured I'd chime back in

Golly,
All this theory and speculation and my Uncles GN ran 10 degrees cooler, etc. can really make your head swim! How about we bring it down to where the rubber meets the road? Who sells a radiator and then guarantees it will never see over 200 in summer traffic or your money back? That's the one I'll endorse! Any takers? Or are you just going to tell me about your uncles GN and how much he loved his Wiz-Bang radiator? (No Flames intended - re-tract claws please!) - BB

 

[whitehot84]

I had my stock radiator re-cored with a 4 core center and 1/2' tubes. It hasn't gone over 180 yet. Usually stays right on 160.

 

[AZ Vic]

I had a LONG conversation with an OLD timer who developed radiators with the government. He told me that it is not how efficient it is but rather the duty cycle.

True, the aluminum is about 10-15% more efficient when new... But DRASTICALLY reduces after the second year or so... the duty cycle of a well built copper/brass is around 20 years. I don't know this for a fact it is just what this "one old man" told me- I for one believe him.

Nick knows his **** and I would go with what he says.

NOONE will guarantee that you won't see 200* in summer because most of the time it's not the radiator at fault. If you are overheating, I would look at other causes before blaming the rad.

FWIW...when I replace, it will be with a HE 3row

HTH

Vic

 

[TurboDave]

Re: Just figured I'd chime back in

Originally posted by Buick Beginner
Golly,
All this theory and speculation and my Uncles GN ran 10 degrees cooler, etc. can really make your head swim! How about we bring it down to where the rubber meets the road? Who sells a radiator and then guarantees it will never see over 200 in summer traffic or your money back? That's the one I'll endorse! Any takers? Or are you just going to tell me about your uncles GN and how much he loved his Wiz-Bang radiator? (No Flames intended - re-tract claws please!) - BB

Who's uncle are you referring? I think most of us (I for one) were speaking of first hand experience.

Now, if you choose to be blind to that fact, that's cool. But real world experience that flies in the face of theory, I know can be hard for some to accept, but that's OK too. Sometimes it takes spending the money anyway to "learn" from one's own experiences.

 

[Roger]

I have no aluminum radiator experience.
My original clogged up & was always running too hot. I had it recored with a HE core & see 175 to 180. The recore cost about $150.
My radiator cooling fan quit, I replaced it with the Ramchargers dual fan & have yet to see over 165. The Ramchargers dual cost me less than $100 & Buick wanted $285 for just the fan motor without blades or shroud.

 

[forzfed]

I put a HE4 row in mine. Cruzing around I am actually less than 160. I got it from my buddy's father in law that works at a place that builds rads from scratch. Pretty neat watching how they take flat strips of copper and make the tubing. I also asked about the aluminum and he said more expense and not needed. But one good thing about the aluminum is it does not plug up like the copper with the copper oxide and calcium that builds up after time.

 

[JeffG]

Are the copper core radiators multi-pass (3-4 row) and the aluminum 2 row single pass units? I was under the impression that the aluminums were single pass. I have been thinking of switching to aluminum also. I'm also making the change to NPG so flow is pretty important.

Thx,

 

[Intercooler]

My Be-Cool aluminum works great with my FM. I had the HE 3 row setup in the past with 5/8" tubes from Holm's and it worked good. The Be-Cool just seems to work real good. We should switch the IC next to copper/brass.