Alternator whine again, ground directly to battery.

[GNRick]

I hate bringing this up so often. I've done searches and I know some of you ground to the battery, some to the frame. Well, I've done both. I have two amps in the trunk, grounded to a junction block which then is grounded to the frame and/or battery (take your pick). The whine is just as bad with the ground wire connected as it is with it disconnected. So that alone should tell us something. The short wire is 0 gauge (I believe) to the frame. I then tried a 20 foot 4 gauge wire to the battery. Still no good. If it is the alternator going bad (which I doubt since it has been doing this for 2 years or more) what should I tell them to test? If they say it is putting out 14 volts (or whatever it should be) then what do I do next? I thought maybe I should just take the 4 gauge wire from the battery and touch the alternator bracket and see if that helps. Or if I have a friend in the car, should I touch anything else with the 4 gauge wire? I even ran the 4 gauge directly to the amps. Still no good. The whine increases with engine RPM.

 

[jhanson1750]

What is whining? You refer to the alt but I'm trying to understand. I think it sounds like your refering to RF noise but not sure. If it is then I may be able to help. Jon Hanson

 

[GNRick]

What is whining? You refer to the alt but I'm trying to understand. I think it sounds like your refering to RF noise but not sure. If it is then I may be able to help. Jon Hanson

It's like a high pitched whistle that gets louder with rpm's.

 

[jhanson1750]

Are you hearing it in the radio/ speakers?

 

[jhanson1750]

Sorry, Rick I use the "new post" button and just saw this is in the AUDIO section. DUUUHHH my bad. Anyway, on to the problem. When was the last time you changed your plug wires? This is a common issue with high end audio equipment and older cars. Jon

 

[garyk1970]

he's talking about an audio tachometer:biggrin: .ill try to explain in easy clear terms........i dont know the details of your system,but here goes my advice;
two most common noise creators;
1)ground loop; voltage is different between head unit and amps.
2)raddiated; where voltage is "injected" by hot/power wires ran too close to the rca cables.

#1 is most common. try running a small gage wire from the radio CHASSIS to the amp ground input.start car with wire connected to radio chassis, and touch the other end to the amp ground input screw and see if whine goes away.if it does,leave wire permanitly.

#2 I always run my power cable the same side the battery is on (usually the oem wires are run on the same side) and run my rca cables on the oppsite side.

if neither help,start car,unhook rcas from stereo (amps must stay on).if noise quits,bad stereo ground,rca(S),or bad stereo (ive seen several pioneers go bad)

also ,ive seen amps simply turned up too much.....turn them down and check the noise level...the biggest misconception in car audio i see everyday is the gain controll on the amp DOES NOT limit the amount of power an amp puts out,BUT sets the "speed" that an amp turns up in relation to the head unit......

 

[jhanson1750]

audio tachometer L..M..A..O..:biggrin: I had never heard that one before!!! Sond like you may be able to help a little more than I. Good luck with it. Jon Hanson

 

[GNRick]

he's talking about an audio tachometer:biggrin: .ill try to explain in easy clear terms........i dont know the details of your system,but here goes my advice;
two most common noise creators;
1)ground loop; voltage is different between head unit and amps.
2)raddiated; where voltage is "injected" by hot/power wires ran too close to the rca cables.

#1 is most common. try running a small gage wire from the radio CHASSIS to the amp ground input.start car with wire connected to radio chassis, and touch the other end to the amp ground input screw and see if whine goes away.if it does,leave wire permanitly.

#2 I always run my power cable the same side the battery is on (usually the oem wires are run on the same side) and run my rca cables on the oppsite side.

if neither help,start car,unhook rcas from stereo (amps must stay on).if noise quits,bad stereo ground,rca(S),or bad stereo (ive seen several pioneers go bad)

also ,ive seen amps simply turned up too much.....turn them down and check the noise level...the biggest misconception in car audio i see everyday is the gain controll on the amp DOES NOT limit the amount of power an amp puts out,BUT sets the "speed" that an amp turns up in relation to the head unit......

The power wire to the amps is a thick wire just like the wire grounded to the frame. I think it is 0 gauge and runs from the battery into the fender hole by the antenna and then apparently down into the passenger side frame under the car. The rca cables run from the radio under the sill plate on the passenger side of the car, for the rear speaker amp and the door speaker amp. The rca cables for the subwoofer amp go along the driver side. I tried pulling the rca cables away from the car but that didn't help. So I don't think the power wire is sending a signal into the rca cables. I've tried two sets of rca cables. When I disconnect the rca cables from the amps, the whine goes away. So the radio I think is ok. The problem is somewhere in the amps. I have played with the gain knob on each amp. When I turn it down I get no volumn out of the amps. As I turn it up, the music gets louder along with the whine. I tried grounding the radio chassis to the factory ground wire and also to the frame around the radio where it attaches to. That didn't help. So are you saying to run an 18 gauge wire from the radio chassis to the grounding block in the trunk? Do you think that will help with the problem affecting the amps? I'll give it a shot later tonight and will report back. Thanks.

 

[GNRick]

Sorry, Rick I use the "new post" button and just saw this is in the AUDIO section. DUUUHHH my bad. Anyway, on to the problem. When was the last time you changed your plug wires? This is a common issue with high end audio equipment and older cars. Jon

Jon- plug wires are fairly new with less than 5,000 miles on them. Thanks.

 

[garyk1970]

yes, run a wire to the back temporarly to see if there is a ground loop.if it works,then run wire to rear and hide.

if you unhooked the rca'a at the amp and whine quit,then the amps are NOT the problem.

try unhooking the rca's at the stereo,if whine quits, its the ground loop as above or bad stereo/rca's

keep us posted.....

 

[garyk1970]

Jon- plug wires are fairly new with less than 5,000 miles on them. Thanks.

FYI, if it was the plugs/wires the sound would be a "tick" as the cylinder(s) fire......

 

[David65]

So, when you had the heavy ground wire from the battery to the amps, were the amps still grounded to the sheet metal or frame at that time? And where was the radio getting it's ground at that time? If it was me, I would run the ground wire from the battery directly to the amps, without connecting it to the sheet metal/frame anywhere. Also, I would run the power & ground for the radio directly to the battery without using any of the factory indash wiring either. That's how I've been doing it and yet to have the "audio tachometer" :biggrin: problem. I even run the RCA's to the trunk right beside the power leads, physically touching them, and don't seem to have problems. My two cents...

 

[garyk1970]

I even run the RCA's to the trunk right beside the power leads, physically touching them, and don't seem to have problems

you are very lucky .injected noise is the #2 most common prob i see.(i install about two systems on average a day for twenty years now ) what you say about running the wires stait to the battery i understand how it would work.
But ,running all these wires isnt nessasary.if you dont use the oem wires,how does your radio turn off? your body,frame ground is better than and hold more amperage any size wire that would fit physically in the car...(as long as you upgrade the ground from battery to body if needed).
no flaming intended- just trying to help.

 

[David65]

I even run the RCA's to the trunk right beside the power leads, physically touching them, and don't seem to have problems

you are very lucky .injected noise is the #2 most common prob i see.(i install about two systems on average a day for twenty years now ) what you say about running the wires stait to the battery i understand how it would work.
But ,running all these wires isnt nessasary.if you dont use the oem wires,how does your radio turn off? your body,frame ground is better than and hold more amperage any size wire that would fit physically in the car...(as long as you upgrade the ground from battery to body if needed).
no flaming intended- just trying to help.

I use a small relay at the radio, controlled by the factory wiring, to switch the 12V used to turn on the radio. Overkill yes, I know. The factory wiring is small to begin with. Funny thing about some people liking to use the body/frame for the return path for the power. I've asked some people I know who install car stereos for a living and they don't like using the sheetmetal/frame ground method either. I guess me being a Electrical Engineer, I just like to over engineer things...

 

[garyk1970]

cool....well i see where youre comming from:biggrin: .ive learned that I/we can talk over someones head without even realizing it . just trying to keep it simple untill he's tried all the basic stuff first (dont ask me how i know).

 

[David65]

cool....well i see where youre comming from:biggrin: .ive learned that I/we can talk over someones head without even realizing it . just trying to keep it simple untill he's tried all the basic stuff first (dont ask me how i know).

10-4. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never really had too much of a problem with the audio tach issue. :biggrin: About the only time I've ever really had an issue with an install was on a '89 Blazer several years ago. Got all done and it sounded great. Few weeks later had all kinds of ignition popping noise. WTF? Took the radio/eq out of the dash and set it on my lap. No noise. Hmmm? Put it back in the dash and the noise sometimes was there. Discovered that sometime after I put it all in the dash the first time, the rca's from the radio to the eq (they were stacked on top of one another) had come unfolded and were laying against the inside of the firewall. You could actually move the rca cables closer to the firewall and the noise would increase. Back off and the noise went away. Freaky. Damn ignition systems...

 

[A2000RICH]

I hate bringing this up so often. I've done searches and I know some of you ground to the battery, some to the frame. Well, I've done both. I have two amps in the trunk, grounded to a junction block which then is grounded to the frame and/or battery (take your pick). The whine is just as bad with the ground wire connected as it is with it disconnected. So that alone should tell us something. The short wire is 0 gauge (I believe) to the frame. I then tried a 20 foot 4 gauge wire to the battery. Still no good. If it is the alternator going bad (which I doubt since it has been doing this for 2 years or more) what should I tell them to test? If they say it is putting out 14 volts (or whatever it should be) then what do I do next? I thought maybe I should just take the 4 gauge wire from the battery and touch the alternator bracket and see if that helps. Or if I have a friend in the car, should I touch anything else with the 4 gauge wire? I even ran the 4 gauge directly to the amps. Still no good. The whine increases with engine RPM.

gn rick---------i can help you with this problem---------unlike what most folks think its almost never the ground connection and its NEVER the power wires------silly wives tales passed down through the years by installers that havent a clue what really causes alternator wine---------i've written books on the subject, done magazine articles for CAR AUDIO, CAR SOUND, CAR STEREO REVIEW and other mags, done consulting work for equipment companies like sony, alpine, rockford, kenwood, phoenix gold, MTX, pioneer, circuit city and even GM on this subject and held training seminars throughout the word training installers on this and other subjects-------as well as dominated the car audio circuit by winning the international championship for several years with a GN in the unlimited power class in IASCA and was the only contestant to win the car audio masters invitational tournament twice and retire undefeated............i know car audio---------call me at 336-229-5554 and we'll deal with the problem...................RC

 

[GNRick]

gn rick---------i can help you with this problem---------unlike what most folks think its almost never the ground connection and its NEVER the power wires------silly wives tales passed down through the years by installers that havent a clue what really causes alternator wine---------i've written books on the subject, done magazine articles for CAR AUDIO, CAR SOUND, CAR STEREO REVIEW and other mags, done consulting work for equipment companies like sony, alpine, rockford, kenwood, phoenix gold, MTX, pioneer, circuit city and even GM on this subject and held training seminars throughout the word training installers on this and other subjects-------as well as dominated the car audio circuit by winning the international championship for several years with a GN in the unlimited power class in IASCA and was the only contestant to win the car audio masters invitational tournament twice and retire undefeated............i know car audio---------call me at 336-229-5554 and we'll deal with the problem...................RC

Hey Richard, thanks for the offer. I will definitely call you. I read about your GN in a friend's car audio magazine several years ago. (The magazine was already several years old at that time). I couldn't figure out how you shoe horned that massive horn or whatever it was under the dash. Now I'm gonna put you on the spot- at Bowling Green a few years ago, you said you would tell us what components you recommend for a GN that would give us excellent sound for not a lot of money. I haven't heard anything about it since. Did you ever come up with the list of "Richard Clark approved" components? :biggrin: Again, thanks for the offer and you will be hearing from me.:smile:

 

[GNRick]

So, when you had the heavy ground wire from the battery to the amps, were the amps still grounded to the sheet metal or frame at that time?
...

Amps were still grounded to the frame. I also removed the ground wire from the frame. No difference. Then I removed all ground wires to the amps. Still no difference. I figure this must indicate something but I don't know what.

and where was the radio getting it's ground at that time?

From the factory thin ground wire. I also tried grounding it with 18 gauge wire to the metal frame where the radio attachs to with screws.

If it was me, I would run the ground wire from the battery directly to the amps, without connecting it to the sheet metal/frame anywhere.

Yes, I tried that.

Also, I would run the power & ground for the radio directly to the battery without using any of the factory indash wiring either.

I haven't tried that yet. Thanks for all of the great help, David. I'll report back.

 

[A2000RICH]

Amps were still grounded to the frame. I also removed the ground wire from the frame. No difference. Then I removed all ground wires to the amps. Still no difference. I figure this must indicate something but I don't know what.



From the factory thin ground wire. I also tried grounding it with 18 gauge wire to the metal frame where the radio attachs to with screws.



Yes, I tried that.



I haven't tried that yet. Thanks for all of the great help, David. I'll report back.

guys--------sorry to say but none of this stuff means much to the problem--------i'll go through this problem with rick and when its fixed we'll let him explain what fixed things-------and i'll take the time to explain why it worked.............RC