Alcohol floods out

[Huffer]

I seem to be having some trouble tuning my SMC alcohol kit- Car ran great before kit, basically stock 12.5 @107.5- since then I've added a TA49, bluetops and a 3" downpipe- car will carry 18PSI on Sunoco 94 without the alcohol- am using Thrasher 92 chip- alky turn on is set for 12 PSI- the problem is that at anything over the lowest pump speed the engine seems to flood out and really misses badly- have not had car to track since the additions but seems to run strong without the alcohol- any thoughts?
Thanks, Dave

 

[WSLN 6]

Yep, crank up the boost. You should have no problem running 23psi boost with your combo. I can run 21-22psi boost with the stock turbo/injectors and a Thrasher 100. I can' even run under 18psi with the alky, it will hesitate.
Bottome line........crank her up and watch for knock.

 

[blackbuick87]

Is this common? I am having the same problem. Running a #14 nozzle, 20psi is all I can get out of my wastegate and RA93 chip. Damn thing floods every time! My pump is not adjustable like the SMC. I dont even have the alky coming on until 15psi. I have a Thrasher 100 on order from Scott but is that going to solve my problem?

When I put in my Thrasher 108 I can get over 23psi but I get too much knock. What do I do, run the 108 and the biggest jet (.025) I have?

This is really, really pissing me off.

When running alky do you have to go WOT or idle or it will flood out?

 

[Steve Y]

You guys gotta put water with it.
That'll lean it out and you will make as much or more power if the ratio is right....
turn the boost up.
Steve

 

[blackbuick87]

I tried 60/40 water/alcohol at 22psi and it still did the same thing. That was with the Thrasher 108. I gues my car just wants to stay sober

 

[Chuck Leeper]

alky problemz

Try raising the point at which the alky comes on. This will give the engine a bit more time to build some chamber heat B4 the alky gets there. Also, can do Steve's suggestion and dilute the alky some.

BB87.. if you are still getting knok at 23psi, maybe the pump you have won't flow enough to keep the knok down. Also, if you are running a Thrasher and have the base fuel at 45, then that plus the boost of 23, totals 68psi of pump load.. can your pump do this?? Is the Fp keeping up w/ the boost at WOT??
Tuning these alky systems w/ street chips is not the way they were intended to be used. Was the car ever tuned w/ race gas and chip to begin with?? If not, then it's BACK TO THE BASICS:
Race chip
Race gas. IE: 116
Fresh sensor
Fresh plugs
GOOD fuel system.
GOOD scan tool.
Accurate FP ga.
Accurate boost ga, and a good control system.
Sneak up on the boost.. Want to see at least 22*
Tune for ZERO knok using these components. This confirms that the car will run correctly to begin with. If not, correct the problem, then start w/ the alky.
Put GOOD no-led premium in, leave the race chip in, turn the alky up to near max and make a WOT blast, watching O2's and knok.
Engine bogs when alky comes on? turn the pump speed down a bit and repeat. Continue to "wean" the engine of alky til the bog is gone. [Can use Steve's suggestion and add some H2O and leave the pump speed alone for the time being] If you get some knok, turn it back up a bit.
Another tool is to move the "on point", in addition to the volume.
I found the SMC kits take about 2-3 sec's to get to max flow. So if the knok is coming in early, it may be the volume is not there soon enough.. Lower the on point a bit.

REMEMBER!! The alky system IS NOT designed to "repair" a faulty fuel system or a bad tuneup to begin with....

 

[blackbuick87]

Well I have the alky coming on at 15psi, didnt want to go any higher than that. I am going to follow your suggestion chuck. I am going to fill with 110 (all I can get here) and put in the Thrasher 108 and see how it runs. if everything is fine then its back to the alcohol.

One other thing. When a plug is fouled on alcohol what does it look like? When I changed the plugs yesterday they looked fine when I removed the old ones. When I put in the CR43ts's it did seem to run better though

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Foul plugs on alky??

Bob, I doubt the alky will foul the plugs. If anything, the plugs will look to be lean.
I always had the plug read problems w/ my dragster..would have to make quite a few runs to get any color at all. Talked to some sprint car guys and they said "keep running them, they'll color up some day"!!
If you have a plug that are fouled black, then I'd be looking at something besides the alky.

 

[blackbuick87]

Well thats what has me confused. They do look clean, not black.
BUT, heres what happens

My car runs fine. I put the alky on at 15psi, 21psi boost. Then it feels like too much alky, or its not atomized correctly. Then car pops and bucks, hesitates. I now have the alky turned off and boost turned down to 15psi. The car still hesitates and misfires sometimes, sometimes it wont. THAT is what irritates me the most. I dont think it is the coil pack because it happens one time and not the next

 

[YGETV8]

My experiences (may be pertinent to both Blackbuick and Huffer's problems, so bear with me!): I had a dead-headed, NOS nozzled DIY kit on my GN and it worked just fine (alky time in sig below was this setup). Ran like a .030 jet, if memory serves. So, I built one for my WE4, but O'Reilly's supplier had since changed the "Ford" pump and it was now a Walbro. This pump was much more powerful as evidenced by my inline gauges. I could NOT get the WE4 tuned! It seemed I couldn't use a jet small enough as the pump was just too much. It would gurgle and drown all the way down the track (12.7@111)! So, I bought an SMC controller and two nozzles to add into my DIY kit. Helped, but still wasn't right. Didn't seem to be very adjustable. Well, I had wired the controller in wrong and it was running at wide open no matter what the setting! Steve Chlupsa corrected me when he told me it was a "modulated ground" system. WE4 runs TONS better now: 12.15@114, with no other changes but the upgraded alky! So, I upgraded the kit on my GN too and haven't looked back yet!

Huffer: is your pump a really powerful one? Maybe the same scenario I had on the WE4? Never know.

BlackBuick: You may want to double check your wiring. I'm far from an electrician, but I sure thought I had it right the first time!

Just some more ideas.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I agree with Chuck 100 percent. Delay the turn on point to get the temps up, then use the alchy to keep the temps steady.

If you can, raise the timing 2 degrees. This helps to deal with the richer conditions the alchy creates, and raises temps as well.

Once you verify the fp is maintained at the right level at wot, you could try lowering the fp a little bit. This woll help with 'rich pop' that you get as soon as the alchy comes on line.

Lastly, try running 100 percent de-natured. It's easier to tune, and you can always add water, and slow the pump speed as you increase water content.

Most of the problems associated with running alchy can be traced to an engine that is not in a perfect state of tune. Fuel, and spark.

 

[blackbuick87]

Just got my car running good again, it was definitely the alky screwing up the plugs. I am back to 16psi on 93

I dont think I can delay the pump any more. I already have it set for 15psi. If I change it to 17psi I will be knocking before the alky even gets there.

I thought about the pump being too powerful also. But its the pump that came with the Jay Carter kit. Why on Earth would it come with a pump that is too damn powerful? Before I installed it I looked at the pump to find the manufacturer and couldnt. It just had an arrow showing flow direction and said "90psi max" on it. Maybe it was 95, getting foggy now.

I also double checked my wiring, dont see how that could be wrong, the pump pumps the right direction and comes on when its supposed to. I pulled the up pipe and hit the pump to see the spray pattern and it comes out in a "v" pattern. Which direction should the spray go, towards the air filter or towards the engine?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Ok then, running alchy is causing a flooded condition for you.

To really take advantage of alchy, you need to raise the timing. The extra heat in the cylinders will help your engine to 'digest' the mixture.

Try timing, and denatured, then mess with the nozzle size...

 

[Chuck Leeper]

JC pump??

BB87, I had a JC kit at 1 time.. thot the pump was out of a F&%d truck injection system.... Anyone?? JC??

At 21# of boost, the alky is "atomized correctly", believe me!!
I'd be looking elsewhere for the "knok and bucking", etc.
Could be the plug wires breaking down, the coil or module going away, etc, etc. All these components are required to operate under much higher elec loads when the boost goes up.[The engine comp. ratio goes to 18:1 at 21# of boost!!]
What's the elec. system volts at WOT?
Didn't see the response to "what's the FP at WOT???".

Also, how bout the added power pushing the engine over and making the DP hit the a-arm?? More boost, more torque, more engine movement.... Knok, knok..

Huffer.. tune it w/ race gas first.. Then do the alky.
The timing in street chips doesn't get the job done w/ alky!!!
Re-read my previous post. That info came from the "horses mouth", Steve Schulpsa, and from my personal experiences w/ both BUICK and other engines w/ these kits... Been selling his kits since the first design, and that's the way to get into alky tuning and be successful at it.

 

[blackbuick87]

I'll find out this week when I put in the 110 and turn the boost up. If it cant handle that I am going to try new plug wires. Will keep you posted.

 

[fc227]

Hello;

I don't know if this is any help . But I have one of those ford pumps for the alky and I measured 100 # PSI at the .028 jetted NOS nozzle. I'm trying Isopropyl & H2O.

So I built a P.W.M. speed control and intergated it witha MAP sensor (My car doesn't have a computer). So I can dail a pump speed , But the pump speed will also increase has boost increases. This should help help with low boost "flooding" and higher boost lean condition. Maybe

I have not fully tested this yet. I want to get it dailed in on C16, Get some egt's from that . and tune the alky from there. I haven't been to the track in 10 months. But I was there yesterday Thank God.

I thought 100 # psi was high. So I got a .028 , .022 , 018 jets.

We'll see at the next affordable track rental or Dyno day.

 

[blackbuick87]

What is a PWM speed controller?

I found out last night I have more problems than I thought, now my car is missing badly and I cant even step on the gas enough to get into the turbo. Ordered a new set of plug wires from Ramchargers, hope that fixes the problem.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

PWM??

Bob, it's a pulse width modulated control.
As for the no boost, missing deal. Look at the MAF taking a dump. Do the tap test w/engine running and see what happens.
If the miss is so bad you can't get past zero vac, then it's most likely not the plug wires.

 

[blackbuick87]

Hey Chuck I tried the MAF rap test, it did not idle any differently, how hard do you need to hit it?

As for the plug wires, I needed some anyways and want to eliminate the ignition as a possible problem if I can

It was so bad I barely made it home yesterday, took about a mile to get to 60mph. It has slowly been getting worse, I think. Is that typical of a MAF sensor?


Oh BTW, this comes at the same time I took the 454 apart in the boat and found a wiped cam lobe
I appreciate any help getting my car running as it looks like it is going to be the only fun I have this summer

 

[Chuck Leeper]

REALLY BAD OFF!!

Bob, if it's quickly getting to the point of "inop", then I'd put the Casper's tester on the coil pak when you do the plug wires.
Also, what's the FP doing when this is going on??
Does this happen ONLY when you are driving the car, or can you get it to act up sitting ??
The MAF test is done w/ a screwdriver held by the shank and whack the maf a solid rap, don't KILL IT!!
Also, what's the grounds look like??
What's the charge system doing?? Near 14 when you try to rev the engine?? Voltage at the FP, engine running??

Sounds like electrical to me...