2nd time to track

[b4black]

Well, I made it a second time to the track last weekend. My first trip was disappointing. The best I could do was a 16.9. I found that my q-jet's secondaries were not opening. This was easy fixed once I discovered the problem.


This time I was hoping for better, and it did get that. My first run was with the air cleaner and exhaust in place. It was a poorly driven run (I'm new) but I managed a 16.7. So I felt low 16's were no problem once I opened the AC and exhaust.

The next run was going great until about half track. The engine died. I let off, it came back, but died again once I got back on it. Kinda like it was sucking air in the gas tank.

So I put more fuel in, ran it again, same thing. This time I noticed the boost was max'ing at 12 psi. I still have the factory, non-adjustable actautor which should be set to ~9. Figuring I had a blown actuator, I gave up for the day.


Last night I took off the actuator. It's not blown, my boost is creeping up. Since I had it off, I put on an adjustable actuator. It still creeps.


If it creeps to about 11 psi, the motor starts stumbling again. Maybe a bad fuel pump? So I have a couple of new problems to sort out.

 

[fc227]

Hi Rich

It could be a clogged fuel filter also. Can the one that is in the carb. and put a inline fuel filter, they flow much better.

If it was running lean (i.e. sucking air) it would up the boost For boost creep the best thing to do is to enlarge the wastegate hole to a tad smaller than the puck. This works great and it solved my boost creep problems.

Was it knocking ? that will slam the timing back.

What fuel where you running & what plug gap ?

Turn the boost up to 15# with some C14 or C16 you will run in the 15's. (maybe even C10 , as long has she doesn't knock.)

 

[b4black]

Originally posted by fc227
Hi Rich

It could be a clogged fuel filter also. Can the one that is in the carb. and put a inline fuel filter, they flow much better.

Good idea. I was thinking about rigging up a fuel pressure guage to see if the pump was keeping up or not. I'll bend up a new line and add a filter and a T.

If it was running lean (i.e. sucking air) it would up the boost For boost creep the best thing to do is to enlarge the wastegate hole to a tad smaller than the puck. This works great and it solved my boost creep problems.

I've be thinking about pulling the turbo for other reasons. Maybe a winter project.

Was it knocking ? that will slam the timing back.

Yes, it knocks, but it doesn't seem to all be from boost. It sometimes knock when shifting, and at part throttle (4 psi). I have a Casper's Knock buzzer. It wasn't going off when racing, but the scan tool was showing some. I think I might have some false knock, but I can't track it down. I am trying a new O2 sensor and richer secondary rods this weekend.

What fuel where you running & what plug gap ?

93 octane with ~25% Xylene. AC/Delco 44's with 0.040 gap. I was running a K&N cone in 60° air. Initial timing is 15° BTDC.

Turn the boost up to 15# with some C14 or C16 you will run in the 15's. (maybe even C10 , as long has she doesn't knock.)

Sounds great.


Still slow, but moving it the right direction.

 

[fc227]

Whats your total timing ?

 

[b4black]

No idea.

How do I tell? This is an ECM car. The igintion is basically stock; new plugs, wires, and coil. About what should it be?

 

[Ttype83]

Originally posted by fc227
If it was running lean (i.e. sucking air) it would up the boost For boost creep the best thing to do is to enlarge the wastegate hole to a tad smaller than the puck. This works great and it solved my boost creep problems.

Is the puck on the compressor ?

Glad to hear you made it to the track again

 

[fc227]

Good question

Does the car have mechincal advance weights in it? , or is the rotor fixed and all the timing is controlled by the ECU?

My guess would be have some one in the car and you with the timing light check the total timing at 1000 rpm intevels up to 4000 rpms. (or 5000) and note the timing.

This is How I checked mine. I spun my engine up to 5000 rpms , But what you do is up to you. I don't you to have the engine come apart becasue I said for you to try something. SO BE CAREFULL!

 

[fc227]

Has for the puck. Yes I'm talking about the puck in inside the wastegate.

I put grease on the back side of the puck , closed it to mark the housing. Then I drilled it out so it is .010" smaller than the size of the puck.

It solve My boost creep problems , I have a 2.5" down pipe , and this trick solve the creep problem.

 

[b4black]

I tired measuring the timing, but I couldn't get a good measurement. It seemed to be hiding under the top edge of the timing indicator (~20°+) and the water pump.

But I found out some more. I had a code 55, so I changed the O2 sensor (it was the original). It didn't make a difference in the knocking. I can get 5-6° of retard (according to an OTC 2000) during the 1-2 shift at 0 boost. I can even hear the rattleing noise. So either is false knock, or I have a serious problem.

I am thinking about changing the driver side motor mount. It seems to be very loose and maybe casuing a false knock. I posted more about this here (in General Tech):
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18663


My final thing I'm watching is a ticking sound at idle when the engine is warm. It's been there for awhile, but it's not getting worse. Maybe it's related to the shift knock.

 

[fc227]

The clicking noise could be a header being cracked.

Try to locate a dail back timing light.

 

[Ttype83]

Check your A/C unit. Mine sits on my up pipe.

 

[Freddie's Buick]

Hey Rich.....

I don't know if this helps....but since you do have the ECM, you have to first disconnect the 4-wire connector on the EST to check the timing. ( fcc227, EST/HEI's don't have any advance weights).

Next, loosen the distributor bolt, ( get that infamous 'L' shaped Buick distributor wrench). Now turn it on and the 'CHECK ENGINE' light on the dash will come on. Now you're ready to check the timing! .

*When one disconnects the 4-wire EST connector, the ECM no longer controls the EST/HEI and the distributor goes into default timing. This is the only time one can check and adjust the timing on these vehicles. If you already know this, then I misunderstood your post.....now it's my turn to crawl back under my rock...bye

Oops! I forgot....that light clicking noise could be your M/C selonoid...if it is...not a problem that's normal at idle...

 

[Turbo-Rich]

what what what?

I don't know about B4black but I found your info very useful.
I didn't know about the four wire connector.
I'm way behind the learning curve when it comes to EST, ECM's & the like. But I am learning.
So where are the points on these things anyway?¿? J/K
I am a lot more familiar with D. points or even vac. advanced HEI's. I guess I'm only about 20 yrs. behind LOL

 

[b4black]

When I checked the intial timing, I remembered to disconnect the distributor. What I am trying to do is read the actual timing curve to find out the total timing. It was around 20°+ (with the ECM connected), but this is off the timing indicator's scale and hard to see. I checked into a dial-back timing "analyzer" like Fred recommended. $70 at Sears . (Maybe I'll ask Santa for one)

I learned a while ago not to panic when I here a ticking sounds from a Buick V6. There are so many things it could be. (I paniced the first time I heard an M/C solenoid clicking. It's not that this time.) I not worried too much about it, just keeping an ear open, in case it gets worse or if it's possibly related to my shift knocking.

I tried richer seconadary rods last night for the heck of it. No change.

I think my next step is the polyurethane motor mount. It pretty sure mine is bad and it's a likely cause for shift knock. At least I'll be able to rule it out if it doesn't help.

 

[Freddie's Buick]

Turbo-Rich...yep...the ECM controls the timing on the EST/HEI vehicles from 1981 on up to '86 I believe. In order to dble check the timing you have to go about the procedure I mentioned earlier.

A lot folks get turned off by the ECM system. Its too complex. I personally find it challenging and nerve wracking, (sort of like a love/hate relationship). If you ever want to try timing, just post and I'm sure we can help guide you.

And Rich.....Harbor Freight Tools has that timing light for $29.99.
The Sears one is heavier. I had the Sears w/o the dial back and it lasted many years. When I killed it, I bought the one I mentioned about a year ago. It works great! Only problem is that the battery attachment cables have a tight reach. Yeah I know...its a cheap China made product but the botton line is that it is very light and very practicle. The advance dial is at the back of the timing light just like the one pictured on the Doug Roe book pg. 147.

Good Luck!

Back to my rock......

 

[GNVAIR]

Rich,
I love your site. I actually lurk on this portion of the board because I really admire the guys that play with the carbureted turbo set ups. And the 84-87 guys think they have it rough?? LOL
Anyways, if I could make a strong suggestion to you...especially if you plan on turning up the wick on your car. My advice would be to loose the mechanical fuel pump. I learned a long time ago, that you can never have enough fuel system on a high output carbureted engine........especially one that is turbo charged.
I would atleast install some sort of electric fuel pump (my choice is the Malloy Comp 140) with a regulator and some sort of gauge. Mallory and some of the other manufacturers offer regulators with a return port which would be a great idea since the fuel requirements can change depending on whether the engine is under boost or not. Another suggestion would be to increase the size of the lines to 3/8 or 1/2.
The car looks great. Good luck with it!

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Originally posted by GNVAIR

Anyways, if I could make a strong suggestion to you...especially if you plan on turning up the wick on your car. My advice would be to loose the mechanical fuel pump. I learned a long time ago, that you can never have enough fuel system on a high output carbureted engine........especially one that is turbo charged.
I would atleast install some sort of electric fuel pump (my choice is the Malloy Comp 140) with a regulator and some sort of gauge.

I was wonderring when someone was going to bring this up.
I've used a Holley Blue fp on my Chev's before & liked it A LOT!
Way better than the manual Carter fp I was using.
Anyone know if you can get a F.P. block off plate for our V6's?
Maybe BFH can ingrave a power6 logo on one, lol. Like anyone could even see down there.

 

[GNVAIR]

The block off plates for a small block Ford and the ones for a big block Chevy will fit like a glove to block off the mechanical pump.
I always preferred the Mallory pumps over the Holley pumps as they seemed of better quality and were much quieter. My secret for eliminating all of the noise is to get 4 air box insulators from an 86-93 Mustang. These are the ultimate if you want no noise.

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
The block off plates for a small block Ford and the ones for a big block Chevy will fit like a glove to block off the mechanical pump.

COOL!

I've never really cared about noiseyness but
I'm not "hard core" Holley fp's or nothin', it just happened to be what I was using. This was a VERY loud car so I never really noticed the sound. Thanx for the word to the wise on the Mallory's. I've had good luck in the past with thier dist. & coil's. I never really paid attention to thier fuel pumps, I'll check them out. They are a good company!

 

[RCI2990]

can i put a electric fuel pump on a non-turbo 3.8?or isn't it worth the trouble.