2013 TSO Rules Discussion

[jasjamz]

Street T, you have a good point. I smell fear. Your car runs well on E85, very well! The others in the class would have to increase injector size, and may need to upgrade pumps also. Then they would need to re-tune the car. Timing maps, fueling, and even boost controllers will need to be changed. Then the temperment of the car will change. Learning how to launch, spool, and what the car "likes" will need to be discovered. Oh, and lets not forget the cost and down time to replace things that may break along the way. Being winter and all, the first event would be a cake walk for you to win. Now, that wouldnt be fun to you...or would it?
Let E85 fuel in. Run what you want. Its your car, I guess you can go faster on E85 than C and Q16. If you dont think so, why not allow it.
Hey...can someone point me back to the E85 forum...I'm out of here...flames coming!

 

[street-t]

Street T, you have a good point. I smell fear. Your car runs well on E85, very well! The others in the class would have to increase injector size, and may need to upgrade pumps also. Then they would need to re-tune the car. Timing maps, fueling, and even boost controllers will need to be changed. Then the temperment of the car will change. Learning how to launch, spool, and what the car "likes" will need to be discovered. Oh, and lets not forget the cost and down time to replace things that may break along the way. Being winter and all, the first event would be a cake walk for you to win. Now, that wouldnt be fun to you...or would it?
Let E85 fuel in. Run what you want. Its your car, I guess you can go faster on E85 than C and Q16. If you dont think so, why not allow it.
Hey...can someone point me back to the E85 forum...I'm out of here...flames coming!

Most guy's that run the class already have the fuel sytem neccasary to run e85. I switched my injectors and that's all. The fuel energy constant was changed in the xfi to reflect the e85. My timing is the same as it was with c16 and so is my boost controller. So no need for that many changes. I do smell fear though? I can understand that some guy's have spent the house on there cars and don't want to get beat by a lesser car. Some people don't like change and like to follow the routine. I can understand that. I really don't see the big deal to be honest and not only that but it just makes sense $. If Buick racing in general was a bigger event with bigger payouts and more races then I would consider using race fuel and even then I would still push for e85. It is a class of racing that is fading fast. I think really the problem is most people don't have experience with it so they kinda don't know what to expect. I know I will never switch back.

 

[johnplogii]

So is 89 octane pump gas legal? It's rated at e-10 around here but I believe it can be as high as 15% ethanol. E-85 can be anywhere from 65-90% ethanol. I honestly don't understand the resistance against it. You guys are acting as if it were methanol. Why would a fuel sold at the gas pump along with all other fuels for daily driver cars be not allowed?

 

[re-evaluating]

Not trying to start anything but it was voted on last year and it happened anyway . I don't know that I would have said no at Bowling Green but not finding out until after you had won the event didn't seem like the right way to handle it . Was I was the only one that didn't know ?

And no I am not scared to race you . I just do this for the fun. Win or loose I don't care who is in the other lane.

The only problem I see with it is having to have a tester after every pass to be sure everyone has true e85.

Manny we were pitted 2 or 3 cars away from you at BG and Brad nor I had any idea. I do believe it should have been made public before competition to allow the other racers to decide.
Now that being said I fully support you in running E85 I think it is ridiculous to vote it out since it actually HAS gasoline in it where as I don't believe any of the for mentioned fuels have any gasoline in them.
I don't have a vote in this but I DO have a TSL/TSO car that WILL be competing this year and I will run E85 in my car. My car will just be filler for the class I won't be fast enough to scare anyone. I am just doing it for fun and don't want to have to change tunes when I am on the street, just lower the boost and roll.
Nobody has been to concerned with testing what fuel anyone else is running to this point so I really don't see the big deal with allowing it in. Test all you want but test everyone's fuel.

 

[Brad T]

Manny we were pitted 2 or 3 cars away from you at BG and Brad nor I had any idea. I do believe it should have been made public before competition to allow the other racers to decide.
Now that being said I fully support you in running E85 I think it is ridiculous to vote it out since it actually HAS gasoline in it where as I don't believe any of the for mentioned fuels have any gasoline in them.
I don't have a vote in this but I DO have a TSL/TSO car that WILL be competing this year and I will run E85 in my car. My car will just be filler for the class I won't be fast enough to scare anyone. I am just doing it for fun and don't want to have to change tunes when I am on the street, just lower the boost and roll.
Nobody has been to concerned with testing what fuel anyone else is running to this point so I really don't see the big deal with allowing it in. Test all you want but test everyone's fuel.

I think the e85 isn't a big deal but I have read that lots of things can be mixed with it that make more power . But then like Dave said we don't test gas either .

 

[Grandpa George]

Hey guys, I think we're missing a point here .... the rules were voted on by all the eligible TSO racers and the results came in 14 - 2 ... " NO E85 allowed ".

Not to put too fine a point on this discussion, but it couldn't be any plainer than that !

George

 

[turbobuick]

Most guy's that run the class already have the fuel sytem neccasary to run e85. I switched my injectors and that's all. The fuel energy constant was changed in the xfi to reflect the e85. My timing is the same as it was with c16 and so is my boost controller. So no need for that many changes. I do smell fear though? I can understand that some guy's have spent the house on there cars and don't want to get beat by a lesser car. Some people don't like change and like to follow the routine. I can understand that. I really don't see the big deal to be honest and not only that but it just makes sense $. If Buick racing in general was a bigger event with bigger payouts and more races then I would consider using race fuel and even then I would still push for e85. It is a class of racing that is fading fast. I think really the problem is most people don't have experience with it so they kinda don't know what to expect. I know I will never switch back.

Hi Manny,
Just curious as to what fuel pump your running?

 

[BlownV6]

I have no dog in this fight. But as an outsider this seems reliculous!! TSO is turbo STREET outlaw isnt it??
So he wants to take his street car to the local gas station and fill it up with readily available highway use fuel , then show up at the race track and race. Seems likes thats a complete no brainer to me. You cant tell me that e85 will make more power than Q16 or is any type of advantage over Q16.
Sorry its not my business but wow the whole thing is petty!!! Mike

 

[street-t]

Hey guys, I think we're missing a point here .... the rules were voted on by all the eligible TSO racers and the results came in 14 - 2 ... " NO E85 allowed ".

Not to put too fine a point on this discussion, but it couldn't be any plainer than that !

George

It was voted on making any fuel legal. Not just e85 and after the vote the wording in the rules stayed the same with no change. It did not clearly state no e85 or ethenol.

 

[street-t]

Hi Manny,
Just curious as to what fuel pump your running?

2345 with 220 lb injectors.

 

[street-t]

I think the e85 isn't a big deal but I have read that lots of things can be mixed with it that make more power . But then like Dave said we don't test gas either .

A lot of things can also be mixed in gasoline and is already in q16 that is being used in the class.

 

[Grandpa George]

Well, here's the items that were voted on

Rule Change #3: A) Allow E-85 fuel
B) Allow any type of fuel
C) Don't change the fuel rule

And here's the results of that vote


BDCB Dave Fiscus
BDBB Manny Espino
BDCB Tim Szabo
BDCB Gary Harmon
ADCA Don Cruz
BDCA Billy T
BDCB Rob Irle
ADCB Brad Tennyson
BDCB Jason Cramer
BDCB Nick Piccione
ADCB Paul Dubois
BDCB O.C. Cantrell
BDCB Jr Turner
AABA Tom Robison
ADCA Jason White
BDCB Roy Garcia
Totals:
Rule1: A=5, B=11
Rule2: A=1, B=0, C=0, D=15
Rule3: A=0, B=2, C=14
Rule4: A=4, B=12

Rule A was to specifically to allow E85. 14 TSO racers didn't pick A
seems pretty clear to 14 racers

 

[gnxtc2]

Thank you George, most are missing the point here. There was a vote back in the early part of 2012 and E85 was voted down, no-14 and yes-2. E85 was used....no ifs, ands, buts.

Doesn't matter if E85 is available at the pumps. Rules state no E85 period.

There will be another vote if E85 is going to be allowed in 2013.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[gnxtc2]

It was voted on making any fuel legal. Not just e85 and after the vote the wording in the rules stayed the same with no change. It did not clearly state no e85 or ethenol.

E85 was specifically voted down. Where does it state any type of fuel? Hmmmmm any type of fuel.....I guess according to your statement nitromethane would have been legal??????

The rules state gasoline only.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[street-t]

Billy I never said it wasn't used? The rule as it is written is not specific on e85. I do agree that it was voted on. I also didn't see any changes in the way the rule was written after the fact. The reason anyone knows that I was running e85 is because I said it. Not because anyone found out. Are you upset about me running e85 in Bg and Rn? Do you think that everyones car that runs Tso is 100 % legal?[/

 

[gnxtc2]

Manny

I have nothing personal against you. I am going off what was voted on and the rules. The other issue it was never said that you were running E85 at BG.

And IMHO price for E-85 vs race fuel has nothing to do with it, it's benefits of running E-85/ethanol has more to do with it. When E-85 first came out, it was meant to be a "green" fuel. The racing community knew about the benefits of ethanol/methanol/alcohol.

If E-85 gets voted in, it will open a can of worms........might as well vote in alcohol. You know how many cracked Stage blocks will be able to get used again.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[street-t]

Manny

I have nothing personal against you. I am going off what was voted on and the rules. The other issue it was never said that you were running E85 at BG.

And IMHO price for E-85 vs race fuel has nothing to do with it, it's benefits of running E-85/ethanol has more to do with it. When E-85 first came out, it was meant to be a "green" fuel. The racing community knew about the benefits of ethanol/methanol/alcohol.

If E-85 gets voted in, it will open a can of worms........might as well vote in alcohol. You know how many cracked Stage blocks will be able to get used again.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

I'm glad to here you have nothing against me. Thought maybe you where gonna pull me over and frisk me. LOL J/K I really don't think it will open a can of worms. E85 and methenol are not the same and can easily be told apart. Do you really think someone is gonna come to Tso to cheat? Come on now really? What is there to gain. It sure ain't money. They sure are not gonna be winning over John Force? If someone has to race in Tso and cheat they have some serious problems and need to get checked out. Billy cheating can be done with the fuel that is currently being used in the class and we are not testing that. Tso racing is more of a hobby type racing I can't see anyone coming to cheat.
I promise you one thing if you try e85 your gonna say "Damn I should've done this sooner".

 

[street-t]

I am gonna say this since some of if not most of the Tso racers have not posted. I know Gary Harmon didn't care and knew I was running e85 at Bg. He asked me and I told him. Dave Ficus also knew from my understanding. Don knew that I was starting my car on e85 before I even deciced to go to BG. I also told him that I was gonna run the car on e85. Don just thought that it should've been brought up at peer tech which I agree it should have. It was my mistake for not bringing it up. I was under the impression that it wasn't that big a deal.

 

[III'S 87 GN]

#1 Exhaust rule

Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler !

My car and most likely any other car that is legal for the speeds and et's it runs has to many floor bars and frame bars to run exhaust out.

Any other non buick race classes allow it to exit anywhere and don't require muffler on turbo cars.

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count.

 

[street-t]

#1 Exhaust rule

Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler !

My car and most likely any other car that is legal for the speeds and et's it runs has to many floor bars and frame bars to run exhaust out.

Any other non buick race classes allow it to exit anywhere and don't require muffler on turbo cars.

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count.

Glad to see you made it to the playground.