009's all done @110% Duty Cycle? (T+ tuning)

[bruce]

Originally posted by Razor
Quote:"changing the injector size to move things around IMO, can be lots of trouble."
Bruce, sorry to barge in on this thread..but..when you tell your ecm the injector constant is ..lets say 29 for the sake of arguments ..which is for 50 lbs injectors..and the car runs rich throughtout..why can t setting the the constant to 28 or 27 be used to lean the whole range out? Or lets say it runs great but has a high static fuel pressure to run this..why not increase the constant and decrease the fuel pressure..And I would pressume fuel pressure in the 37-45 lbs range would be normal numbers.
Point is if the 009's are being run at a high static fuel pressure,like 50 lbs...it would appear that most fuel pumps will work better at 65 lbs vs 75 lbs..Or in the case of 009's go into the PE fuel trim vs RPM and add fuel up top.
Just learning here..

When you start lieing you have to continue the lie. If you're moving the fuel around other then telling the ecm the correct injector size, all you doing is covering for the MAF tables and scalers being wrong.

An engine is an air pump, once you start changing things the VE changes, and with that the actual loads as reflected in VE or in the case of a MAF car LV8s. If you look at the timing tables they are a function of LV8. Lots of parameters are based on LV8. If you just short cut fooling with the injector constants to take care of what are MAF table and scaler problems then you are ignoring the LV8 changes and how they effect all the other related functions. Just a matter do you want the correction right or do you want it correct.

Understanding the MAF stuff is a PITA, most folks just avoid changing them.

Once you get the MAF stuff right then you can work on the LV8 related stuff, and then have things correct.

 

[Razor]

Thanks

 

[Dean]

Getting here late, but…

Originally posted by MJRWOOD
At full boost the fuel pressure maintained 72-75 PSI throughout the whole run. As usual, she was popping at the top of third gear and Direct Scan showed third gear O2's in the 750's with lean pops dropping to the 600's.

Earlier on I believe you said you were running you static FP @ ~50# and ~24psi boost, with a 340 pump. At those pressures, if your supply voltage at the pump is ~13.0v, the pump is capable of delivering roughly ~60 gal/hr at static pressure, dropping to 48 gal/hr at full boost. Again, this is pump volume, not at the rail, which is some 20' of twisty little crimped metal line, with tiny orifice fittings, later. Add that restriction and the efficiency drops. Dunno how much (at the monment), so don't ask. That line may have some corrosion in it too. If your static FP was reduced to ~45, the pump is capable of delivering roughly ~63 gal/hr at static pressure, dropping to 52 gal/hr at full boost. We did this on a friend's car and it helped eliminate KR.

BTW, Bruce mentioned his static FP was 42… at ~13.0 the 340 would provide roughly ~64 gal/hr at static pressure, dropping to ~54 gal/hr at ~24 psi boost. But, Bruce has also mentioned (elsewhere) that he provides more like 14.0 volts, so it could be as much as ~72 gal/hr at static pressure, dropping to 59 gal/hr at ~24 psi boost. Quite a difference, if my calculations are close to correct... you: 48 gal/hr @ WOT; him: 59 gal/hr @ WOT. Nearly 20%.

The fuel pump data was calculated from data listed at http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fuelpump.html, and it is noted that this data came from Walbro. I have sent an e-mail directly to Walbro asking for data at 12.0, 12.5, 13.0, 13.5, and 14.0. hopefully I will hear back from them, but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally posted by TurboJim
He has the *right* amount of fuel being injected, the *right* amount of timing to sustain an RPM level and make the most power available at that level.

That's what I want to achieve, but I'm not exactly sure how, and I'm not a scientist so I don't completely understand everything, but I'm trying. One thing I do understand is that it is not beneficial to have the injector on all the time... now, how do I (& a lot of "we's") get it so that it isn't, besides detuning the crud out of it? If "X" injectors provide "Y" amount of fuel @ "Z" ms, which equates to "XX" pounds of fuel, which is sufficient to produce "YY" HP, but I can't, where do I start? I'm trying to me methodical, considering each element, but I don't know if I am looking at the elements in a completely logical order.

Modified ECMs and larger injectors are one part of the puzzle, but what if there are self imposed limitations that don't allow for it? For instance, I have limited myself to injectors that can work with stock ECMs so that if I am ever in the middle of nowhere and the ECM fails, I can get another one in a reasonable amount of time, like from an auto dismantler. Sure, it is feasible to just keep another ECM with me, but crimany, where would that logic end? Cary one of these, and one of those, and one of these, and one of those... no thanks. Granted, this may (will?) limit performance, but I'm not looking for "maximum", just "as good as possible" with what I have.

Originally posted by TurboJim
On one hand, we have guys like Bruce, making 450hp with 300hp worth of parts, Then we have the guys who bolt on 600hp worth of parts and make 300hp....who say guys like Bruce are full of crap. Who would you say really knows what theyre doing?

This may be the "Quote Of The Thread". I'm somewhere in the middle, but closer to the wrong end.

Originally posted by bruce
If you poke around some, you'll see I've been writing about tuning, and proms for years, now.

Where else should I be looking?

Originally posted by bruce
This is something, I just do for grins, and a few friends.

Can I be your friend?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by azgn
ok, I get the picture.....basically tuning to the fuel and that's fine( I guess we all do that)......

But what are you trying to do with the fuel?.
Why do you run the AFRs you do?.
Why, so you run the timing you do?
What goals or purpose do you want to do with the fuel?.

Ya, just twisting the timing around and playing fuel will eventually lead to best performance, but you can reach the same ends thru different means. Ever notice some guys go incredibly quick with just a mild setup?, and some take a huge effort and lots of cash to get there?. For the guys with the talent and gift to have the feel, it's one thing, for others they don't have the gift so they have to spend more. One trick is spend money where it does you the most good.

This thread was originally about what one guy wanted to do since he was out of injector. Then we got to opinions of a few that have gone faster with a similiar setup. Which is fine, but for someone lacking in the gift/talent to get there they need a method that is workable.

When you start answering the guestions, in the first paragraph, and have a tuneable setup then you can go fast with out having the natural talent gift that some have.

 

[azgn]

well Bruce, you and I have different goals...i want to go as fast as I can and you want to make the car run on 93 octane...all I can say to that is...wanna race? present some evidence you can make 500+ hp on 93 octane and you got my attention! You can achieve whatever af ratio you want if all the variables are controllable....

without a dfi and no time to mess with chips, it is very difficult to do what you do....I just rely on what is available (in my case the MaxEffort) and do the best I can

sadly, the vast majority of us are in that catagory, so until you come up with something meaningful that the great unwashed can use, it is not productive to offer up the fact you can run 24 psi on pump gas

I happen to agree with your thoughts on injectors (that's one thing we can change without a phd in chipology...) and most push them too hard (check Lubrant's charts....)

as usual, I am not sure what the point of your post was, but keep at it!

 

[Razor]

"But what are you trying to do with the fuel?.
Why do you run the AFRs you do?.
Why, so you run the timing you do?
What goals or purpose do you want to do with the fuel?."

Well Bruce ... where do I want to run my air fuel ratio at on a turbo buick motor to achieve the highest power level..12.5? at WOT.. then set timing to achieve the least amount of detonation using the fuel in the tank..

What scan tool do you use to get your data..do you like the AF indicator on DS ? If so..do you tune for a completely flat AF ratio? From 3000 rpms to 5500 when LV8 is at max?

Then go and look at ING PW to see if their in line?

 

[JToups386]

I guess my main reply here is to Bruce and Woody (azgn), (although others in this thread have been very helpful too).
I want to commend you both on creating the most intriguing and interesting post I have read since I joined this forum! And I say that with utmost sincerety! I have learned more about injectors, and the deeper tuning that goes with them, than I ever anticipated! You both make very valid, and supportable points, as well as displaying a well above average knowledge of the whole methodology/science of achieving proper fuel management to build power. It seems to have become a bit competitive between the two of you, which actually has yielded some further insight that probably would not have ever come about, had you both been in agreeance. It's kinda become a technical "pissing contest", yet a very constructive one.
Woody; you seem to want to go mega-fast and appear to have readily accomplished it, per your sig line.
Bruce; you seem to want to have good power, but within the boundaries of street trim, which also can make for playing a strong game, in that, you're in race trim all the time on 93 octane.

Either way, you've both educated me tremendously, and I will continue to follow this post and others the two of you participate in, so that I too may benefit from your apparent knowledge and ingenuity! Thanks to you both!

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by azgn
well Bruce, you and I have different goals...i want to go as fast as I can and you want to make the car run on 93 octane...all I can say to that is...wanna race?


Swing by some time.


present some evidence you can make 500+ hp on 93 octane and you got my attention! You can achieve whatever af ratio you want if all the variables are controllable....


I reported the numbers to you, if you want to work out the numbers fine, otherwise drop it, I'm not into the numbers game. Anyone can claim 500 HP.


without a dfi and no time to mess with chips, it is very difficult to do what you do....


Then why do you try and slight me, and min what I do?.
I try to explain things to you, and get challenges rather then guestions. If you don't understand what I do, you'd get further by asking something rather then the I want to see a dyno slip statements. A dyno is a water pump attached to a calculator, 1/4 times are 50% about the 60' times. We're both interested in performance, but you seem to be hung up on 1/4 and dynos. Which is fine, but is no reason to dismiss someone trying to explain what is going on.

I just rely on what is available (in my case the MaxEffort) and do the best I can

Which is a resonable thing to do.

sadly, the vast majority of us are in that catagory, so until you come up with something meaningful that the great unwashed can use, it is not productive to offer up the fact you can run 24 psi on pump gas


So since you elect not to do your own chips, that should be a concern of mine?. Sorry, but no.
If all you know or want to know about chips is how to tune your ME, fine, this list isn't just about you. While you might be stuck on a point, that is your problem.
Nor is it productive to say, well, I can't don't want to, so it can't be done. Just because it's not productive to you at this time, is no reason for the topic to stop. Hell in that case we can just about all go to reading the archives, and hava Nice Day.


I happen to agree with your thoughts on injectors (that's one thing we can change without a phd in chipology...) and most push them too hard (check Lubrant's charts....)
as usual, I am not sure what the point of your post was, but keep at it!

Some answers in quoted material, and

It all gets back to the original posting, guy was out of injectors, and folks were saying to just patch something together rather then cure the problem.

In large part my postings have been about not gettng obtuse about running the small injectors. Why phart around and play silly games, when there are easy answers. Just get the right injector, and go fast.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by JToups386

Bruce; you seem to want to have good power, but within the boundaries of street trim, which also can make for playing a strong game, in that, you're in race trim all the time on 93 octane.

I'm into having it all.
With EFI there is no reason to settle.

The other thing is, for the street guys, you have to be able to run pump gas so why not learn how to get every bit out of that first, and then have the luxury of using Race stuff for an extra bit of HP.

I just can't wait to get the WI on...........

 

[salvageV6]

Wouldn't one dyno. run take a bit of mystery out of all this?

The gurus have said it is less of a load then running WOT on the street while tuning.

I can understand not wanting to go to the track although MPH is an indicator of HP.

Wind it out once to 5200 rpm in 3rd as you would do while WOT testing on the street and it would be much safer anyway.

Everybody has got a point here.

 

[azgn]

no Bruce, not trying to minimize what you do or say.....I understand your skill at tuning and can well appreciate what you are able to accomplish

I think it would be great if you would make your techniques available via chip or whatever....as mentioned, I have neither the time or inclination to make my own chips...I'll leave that to Steve and you, and others

you are right, all I really care about is going fast in the 1/4....your interests are much broader, no doubt.....

carry on and keep letting us in on what you know!

 

[Steve Wood]

Hillarious thread!! Very entertaining whether or not it had any redeeming information backed up by data.

MJRWOOD, you may have an injector problem but I doubt it is a sizing problem. As Red suggested, if you have verified all the other components of the fuel system with regard to volume and pressure, then it is time to examine your current injectors for proper operation. That should be a lot cheaper than throwing a chunk of money at it.


Woody, I don't think Brucie was claiming 550 hp, only 24# boost with no detonation on 93. I would guess he might make 425 or so which ain't bad on 93. Contrary to what Jimmy T stated, however, he is not running 300 hp worth of mods to get it. I used to laugh every time I read his signature....but if you get past his attempts at humor, you find he has ported heads, coil over plug ignition, reworked intake, turbo, 55# injectors, etc so he does have 500 plus hp worth of mods. I bet he has a kitchen sink buried in there somewhere but it will be a high flowing one.

I would not get too hung up on the boost level; it ain't the whole story.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by salvageV6
Wouldn't one dyno. run take a bit of mystery out of all this?

No more then if someone sat down and did the math on what I've already posted.

I would have thought by now someone would have.

Part of tuning is being able to analyze info., just as you can gather some info., from a time slip you can from raw numbers. If you know an actual AFR, and fuel used you can back up and arrive at the amount of air used, and HP generated. HP can vary some as a matter of engine condition, but by in large, the AFR falls apart, or you wind up with so KR that AFR is just bogusly rich, and that can skew the results. But, you're also talking about a car that is generating a black cloud at WOT.

Then the current drop of dynos have some flat out rediculous corrections. I've seen guys state loses of 25% on a RWD car. For an driveline to absorb that much heat you'd have U-Joints, and ring and pinions just about glowing after a run, that's not to say they aren't really hot, but they are no where nears glowing. I have seen some before and after dyno chassis dyno work on a Syclone that was at 22% for a AWD hipo rig that would seem within the realm of maybe.

Back int the 70s I ran a Clayton dyno, and did lots of R+D eng dyno work, and have seem some of the games played, so I'm less of a believer then most in some reguards. I also have a high reguard of repect for my equipment. I'd much rather surprise some 02 Turbo Carrera owner then use the gas on a dyno pull.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by azgn
no Bruce, not trying to minimize what you do or say.....I understand your skill at tuning and can well appreciate what you are able to accomplish

I think it would be great if you would make your techniques available via chip or whatever....as mentioned, I have neither the time or inclination to make my own chips...I'll leave that to Steve and you, and others

OK, at times it seemed that way.

Anywho, hopefully the hints I leave will have a bit of a trickle down effect. And I do talk with some of the chip guys.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
Hillarious thread!! Very entertaining whether or not it had any redeeming information backed up by data.

Oh, and thanks for you opinion.
Other then idle claims about HP, and ET, you got any real info., to bring to the conversation?.
You know tech stuff like how to to get more at 106% DC then at 100%?. Or heavens, even an answer for why it works to go over 100%?.

Please Steve, bring some data to the table, so we can discuss it, rather then just gabbering. Useable Data, not chest beating ETs, or chassis dyno guessing, real confirable info.. Let's get into the real nuts and bolts of it. DCs, PWs, degrees timing, EGTs, AFRs indicated and actual. Lets really discuss things in a tech nature like what this section of the Board is supposed to be about, at least according to what's charter. Leave the alledged numbers for the Lounge and lets talk turkey, up for that Mr Wood?.

Or anyone else.
I'm sure people are still curious about stuff, I know I am, and I know I learn from conversations here.
I have no problem firing up the prom burner and ecm bench if you really want to get past theory, and maybes.

 

[Steve Wood]

Bruce, I realize you have to shop at an Industrial Supply Store for a neck brace that will support your ego but you tend to present your beliefs as fact without real world results to support them. Your theories may be perfectly sound but without a demonstration of validity, they remain your theories.

I have no doubt that you run the boosts that you claim and I am quite prepared to be impressed by your results, when you have some. I suspect that you are reasonably intelligent in spite of being totally devoid of the personality required to get your points across. Having read a year's worth of the DIY-EFI archives I am well aware of your ability to continue endlessly with childish tirades and flaming over the smallest perceived wounds and I must admit that I find it somewhat amusing that a man of your apparent age and intellect can be reduced to an 8th grade emotional behavior so quickly.

I am sure that you have accomplished something in the Buick world other than to put the Australians into the wide band O2 business and when I see evidence of it, I will be prepared to commend you for it.

I must also admit that your continual attempts to belittle those that question you is amusing even tho it points to a tremendous insecurity complex.

 

[blackshoebox]

Originally posted by Steve Wood

I must also admit that your continual attempts to belittle those that question you is amusing even tho it points to a tremendous insecurity complex.

...Steve you have always had a way with words.

...I have to agree with Steve. Bruce, you seem to give bits and pieces of vague info rather then the bottom line of what you are exactly doing to be able to run 24 psi on 93 octane. Why the "shadow games"?? Either tells us exactly what you are doing or your bragging will go unheard after everyone realizes you're not willing to share your discoveries.

Alex

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
Bruce, I realize you have to shop at an Industrial Supply Store for a neck brace that will support your ego but you tend to present your beliefs as fact without real world results to support them. Your theories may be perfectly sound but without a demonstration of validity, they remain your theories.

I have no doubt that you run the boosts that you claim and I am quite prepared to be impressed by your results, when you have some. I suspect that you are reasonably intelligent in spite of being totally devoid of the personality required to get your points across. Having read a year's worth of the DIY-EFI archives I am well aware of your ability to continue endlessly with childish tirades and flaming over the smallest perceived wounds and I must admit that I find it somewhat amusing that a man of your apparent age and intellect can be reduced to an 8th grade emotional behavior so quickly.

I am sure that you have accomplished something in the Buick world other than to put the Australians into the wide band O2 business and when I see evidence of it, I will be prepared to commend you for it.

I must also admit that your continual attempts to belittle those that question you is amusing even tho it points to a tremendous insecurity complex.

And you tech content is?.
Your the one that wanted to talk tech, and when asked to do so you go off on tangents.

Why do you have to turn this into a flaming contest?.
You add less then nothing to the thread, and ask for data, yet when you're asked to actually bring something to the table, we get nothing.

If I was into ego, I would be into the numbers game.

From what I see, all you do is try to point things out to others, that your the one most guilty of. ie Ego, meaningless posts, etc..

Fascinating, that the issue of piracy escaped you, or that rather then take issue with that, you take issue with me, because I won't support piracy.

Yes, Steve, I am willing to experiment. Yes, I have an eDIST, also was the first one to run it on a GN, and figured out how to do it. I also was the first to run a ROMless 148, and have an actual complete source code for a GN, did I need to so that?, no, but it's called experimenting. Blow thru MAF, yep, didn't need to do that either. Tried to expalin how the MAF Tables and Scalers work, didn't need to do that either. Posted a bunch a injector sizes vs commanded AFRs and related info., didn't need to do that either, ah and that was hours of work to do that one post. I have 55s on my car, so running the other numbers, got me exactly zip, but hopefully it woke some people up.

Can you name one new idea you've brough to the GN community?.

I again invite you to bring some tech content to the thread.
Still waiting for your to answer about what happens at over 100% DC.

Please Steve, rather then cheap character assaults, and statements of half truths, bring something meaningful to the table.

 

[Eric Stage I]

I'm thinkin out loud again...

Maybe we need to define what 100% dc truly means. Is that the max amount of time the injector can be open including opening and closing time? How long does it take to open and close the injector? If 100% includes open/close, I could see where pushing it to say 105% might eliminate the open/close and get a tinsy bit more fuel. Just trying to brainstorm here...

Eric

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by blackshoebox

...Steve you have always had a way with words.
...I have to agree with Steve. Bruce, you seem to give bits and pieces of vague info rather then the bottom line of what you are exactly doing to be able to run 24 psi on 93 octane. Why the "shadow games"?? Either tells us exactly what you are doing or your bragging will go unheard after everyone realizes you're not willing to share your discoveries.

I'm not bragging.
All I've said it run enough injector, and run it the way it's designed to and I don't have to play games trying to get the car to run good.

There are no Shadow games.
It folks that are so used to advertizing games, and egos that have to have the numbers to play their games. I'm not into the games part of things.

I've gone to rather great lenghts to explain what I've done, and I do it in a way that if you want to follow along, you'll get it. I'm not going to try and tune your car for you, so you have to apply what you learn. Have you read any of my posts?. I do report what I find. just because I don't hand you a personalized chip, you accuse me of not sharing. If you consider that not sharing, well everyone one the board is guilty of that.