what would you do ?
- Thread starter bpman1234
- Start date
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
My trans guy stays away from the 4L60E series, once the HP gets much over 400FWHP, especially, in a heavy car. It can be done, but the aftermkt parts drive the cost up.
I've used the 400, in the stage car. No issues.
Lots of hi hp apps w/ the 4L80E. Especially w/ turbo LS combos, at / near 1000HP. Requires an adapter for the v-sicks.
In either case, keep an eye on converter pressure.
I've used the 400, in the stage car. No issues.
Lots of hi hp apps w/ the 4L80E. Especially w/ turbo LS combos, at / near 1000HP. Requires an adapter for the v-sicks.
In either case, keep an eye on converter pressure.
When I went to get my trans rebuilt I discovered someone prior to me had swapped in a 200r4 from an oldsmobile, and the BRF valve body was long gone. I picked up a Th400 from craigslist for $200, had it rebuilt for another $700-ish, put in a manual valve body, new converter, moved the crossmember, and got a new driveshaft. All in I think I paid around $2000 for the swap. It revs slightly higher at highway speeds, but I otherwise don't regret anything. The 400 has been bullet proof going on 6 years.
I have no experience with the 4l60 or 4l80, but I would think either would cost more than building the 200. A 4l80 is also quite heavy.
I have no experience with the 4l60 or 4l80, but I would think either would cost more than building the 200. A 4l80 is also quite heavy.
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What are you trying to achieve? Everyone loves overdrive quieter inside, and engine longevity from reduced rpms. But we like durability also, bullet proof 400's and 4l80e's. I have a built 200, 350 and several 400's. I am just a few hundred dollars short of my maxed out 200 than my 400 believe it or not. Then you have to factor in the supporting parts, cross members, transmissions, torque converter, rear gears and drive shaft. No matter what trans that you toss in chances are you will have some extra associated costs. Pound for Pound my little turbo 350 with 3.23 rear gears has never failed since I had it built. I failed it by not manually shifting into 3rd gear going down the track and grenading my torque converter. By looking at your mods if you still have the 200, get it rebuilt and stick with that.
I have the 400with that billet bell housing with the drive shaft and crossmember and that forward shifter and valve body think it's a Janis or something but it too needs a forward spag or rebuild. but that reverse valve body driving in the streets do I have to shift it manually all the time or can I just put it in drive and will it shift atomic.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Typically, reverse manual valve body 400's are a manual shift affair. No leaving it in D and going, they must be manually shifted. However, with that being said, there are some trans companies that do offer a hybrid auto/manual. Just raises the cost.
I too can vouch for the TH400 as I went down that road on my first car RU.
I had gone through 6 TH200 rebuilds over 5 years and was fed up. This was when seriously racing the 200 trans was still in it's infancy and at the time, Bruce was the only real shop that had a handle on what it took to make them survive. Technology was evolving and being created to make them stronger. I went with a decently built TH400 from TCI with a trans brake, machined for a JW Ultra bell bell housing and an Art Carr 19930 converter. (circa 2000) It survived many 650-750 hp 1/4 mile blasts and was going strong when I sold the car in 2005. The conversion list is not that bad, and IMO, is cheaper than swapping a 4L80 or a serious 800hp capable TH200.
You will need the following:
Converter
Trans cross member mount and modify the stock cross member, or replace it with a tubular one designed for the TH400
Longer driveshaft
Either an after market shifter, or the modified shifter plate for the stock shifter
Adapt your trans cooler line fittings to work with the TH400 fittings
Dipstick tube
Remove the TH200 TV cable
Speedo gear hardware is different
If you're running a trans brake, you'll need a scatter shield / blanket kit for NHRA rules compliance
And last but not least, a BOP bolt patterned TH400 transmission
Pros:
- Reliability. You can literally beat the ever loving snot out of it with hp levels of 400-700 and not worry about it letting you down.
- Rebuild costs are much more affordable.
- Every reputable trans shop can rebuild it correctly.
- Converter selection is abundant.
Cons:
- It does add weight to the car.
- You loose Over Drive and will have higher highway cruising RPMs.
- You loose the ability to lock up the torque converter.
- If you plan on taking trips, or daily driving it, you must run a large, quality trans cooler, preferably one with a fan. Not just the stock radiator's internal cooler either.
- Some don't like manually shifting, or the reverse manual valve body. IE: Going from P.R.N.OD.D.2.1 with the TH200, to P.R.N.1.2.3 with a reverse manual valve body TH400.
- Purists will balk at the idea of switching to a non OEM equipped trans, thinking it can/will hurt value. Maybe, but it can all be switched back if you keep all of your parts.
IMO, if you don't want to sink close to $3000 into the TH200 after all the shipping is factored in, (shipping your core and paying for return shipping) and you know you want reliability with 10 second 1/4 mile or quicker power, go with the TH400 and never look back. Especially if you don't mind the Cons listed above.
That's pretty much all I can think of at the moment.
I myself know, that I will be making this decision after Bowling Green with my current car.
It will be a tough decision to make, as I've been down this road before and can appreciate the benefits of both. However, I also know that if I keep going down this path with my goals for the car, the decision starts to lean more towards the TH400 swap.
Hope some of this helps.
-Patrick-
I too can vouch for the TH400 as I went down that road on my first car RU.
I had gone through 6 TH200 rebuilds over 5 years and was fed up. This was when seriously racing the 200 trans was still in it's infancy and at the time, Bruce was the only real shop that had a handle on what it took to make them survive. Technology was evolving and being created to make them stronger. I went with a decently built TH400 from TCI with a trans brake, machined for a JW Ultra bell bell housing and an Art Carr 19930 converter. (circa 2000) It survived many 650-750 hp 1/4 mile blasts and was going strong when I sold the car in 2005. The conversion list is not that bad, and IMO, is cheaper than swapping a 4L80 or a serious 800hp capable TH200.
You will need the following:
Converter
Trans cross member mount and modify the stock cross member, or replace it with a tubular one designed for the TH400
Longer driveshaft
Either an after market shifter, or the modified shifter plate for the stock shifter
Adapt your trans cooler line fittings to work with the TH400 fittings
Dipstick tube
Remove the TH200 TV cable
Speedo gear hardware is different
If you're running a trans brake, you'll need a scatter shield / blanket kit for NHRA rules compliance
And last but not least, a BOP bolt patterned TH400 transmission
Pros:
- Reliability. You can literally beat the ever loving snot out of it with hp levels of 400-700 and not worry about it letting you down.
- Rebuild costs are much more affordable.
- Every reputable trans shop can rebuild it correctly.
- Converter selection is abundant.
Cons:
- It does add weight to the car.
- You loose Over Drive and will have higher highway cruising RPMs.
- You loose the ability to lock up the torque converter.
- If you plan on taking trips, or daily driving it, you must run a large, quality trans cooler, preferably one with a fan. Not just the stock radiator's internal cooler either.
- Some don't like manually shifting, or the reverse manual valve body. IE: Going from P.R.N.OD.D.2.1 with the TH200, to P.R.N.1.2.3 with a reverse manual valve body TH400.
- Purists will balk at the idea of switching to a non OEM equipped trans, thinking it can/will hurt value. Maybe, but it can all be switched back if you keep all of your parts.
IMO, if you don't want to sink close to $3000 into the TH200 after all the shipping is factored in, (shipping your core and paying for return shipping) and you know you want reliability with 10 second 1/4 mile or quicker power, go with the TH400 and never look back. Especially if you don't mind the Cons listed above.
That's pretty much all I can think of at the moment.
I myself know, that I will be making this decision after Bowling Green with my current car.
It will be a tough decision to make, as I've been down this road before and can appreciate the benefits of both. However, I also know that if I keep going down this path with my goals for the car, the decision starts to lean more towards the TH400 swap.
Hope some of this helps.
-Patrick-
I would love to do the 4L80 , dont really care about the weight gain if I could get into it for a reasonable price, taking the good with the bad. I still dont know why the price is so high. I bought one off of Craigslist out of an '04 for 200 bucks but havent touched it yet. I know that converter technology is there now but the overall cost is way up there to handle stage 2 power. Average about $4500 for the trans and build not including trans brake, 1200 for converter, trans tunnel widening - sledge, driveshaft, x member mods, trans controller or FAST/ Big Stuff 3, whew!!!
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Yep I feel your pain. Sounds like you quickly found out about the cost of doing business with a built 4L80 swap.
Your reasons are why I never gave it a thought. Not that I'm cheap, it just doesn't make logical sense to me, to drop that kind of money in a trans. Especially into something that is more of a hobby and not a Professional class raced for serious money, car. I would much rather spend half, deal with all the cons and have a pretty much bullet proof setup that will live a long life.
To me, the costs are mainly so high because of these factors.
Hard parts and the development costs passed down to the user, in order to bring those hard parts to market.
Shops that know how to build them, typically deal with the LS world, therefore the Corvette tax price structure applies.
As well as adapting current technology into a 30+ year old car that will live and give you OD and a lock up converter.
In this case, the old phrase "Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?" should read, "High hp reliability costs. How much reliability do you want?"
Double edged sword no matter how you look at it.
Your reasons are why I never gave it a thought. Not that I'm cheap, it just doesn't make logical sense to me, to drop that kind of money in a trans. Especially into something that is more of a hobby and not a Professional class raced for serious money, car. I would much rather spend half, deal with all the cons and have a pretty much bullet proof setup that will live a long life.
To me, the costs are mainly so high because of these factors.
Hard parts and the development costs passed down to the user, in order to bring those hard parts to market.
Shops that know how to build them, typically deal with the LS world, therefore the Corvette tax price structure applies.
As well as adapting current technology into a 30+ year old car that will live and give you OD and a lock up converter.
In this case, the old phrase "Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?" should read, "High hp reliability costs. How much reliability do you want?"
Double edged sword no matter how you look at it.
NY Twin Turbo
All the good stuff.....Times 2.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2014
After burning up a few 200's, I strongly recommend the 400. Reverse pattern manual with a trans-brake. You'll need an aftermarket ratchet shifter. I won't elaborate on the details of the conversion because others here are sure to fill you in.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
OK thanks seems like since they both need rebuild and the only money I have to spend is a rebuild cause I have everything for the 400 swap and I don't want to do this again anytime soon the 400 is going in ...can anyone converter shop go through the one I have and clean it up ?.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
I'm pretty sure all reputable trans shops can service your TH400. Even though that's not an off the shelf regular 400 that they're used to seeing, it just has some nice and shiny parts in it. It might also be fully rollerized just by looking at what's on it. Where are you located? Someone might be able to recommend a good local shop to you.
south Florida ftlauderdale I have someone to rebuild it there close to me but my question is for the converter there is a shop close to me that deal with converters .they will be able to freshen mine up and tell me what it stalls or can change the stall?
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Honestly, ask them if they've serviced any converters used on turbo v6 Buick applications. I would also post something in your local forum, to see if anyone knows about the shop in question. Just do some research, before committing to letting a shop cut open the converter. Trans is no problem.
