Trying to iron out a bad combination...

Sharingan3

New Member
This is my first GN. Been racing an all motor chevelle for the last 2 years
(11.32@117 spinning) and a Monte Carlo SS before that. So I know a little about racing and a little about g-bodies. I got Anderson to do a 86-87 swap on my 85 but I'm using a lot of good stuff over a lot of old crap and I don't know if it's the old stuff I should change, or it's just a bad tune, or what. The guy I bought the car from is my only source of what it has had done to it and he is a severe liar (he said the car went 10.98@124 with a pt-55 and 83#siemens injectors on the old hot air setup). Yeah, exactly. Anyway, here's what I got: PT-60 Turbo/ Precision Turbo front mount intercooler/3" stainless downpipe w/ test pipe and cut out/ 009 injectors (any of you older guy's remember that name? I'm told that's what they used to call greentop 42.5#
injectors in the day). And the cam (I'm told by the ex-owner) is an old, and I quote " 202/202 cam". I know, I feel retarded even repeating such a stupid thing, but again, it's all I got. I built and had the luxury of doing all the machine work to the motor in my chevelle, so if I was even given an inkling of some numbers that made any sense, I could get somewhere. Supposedly, the "202/202" cam was popular back in the day and that's the name it went by./ Anderson made me two chips: one @ 16lbs for 93 and one @22lbs for race gas (I know, you alky guys are laughing at me already)/TurboXS boost controller/ MSD 8.5 mm wires/ other than that, the motor is pretty much stock specs. Anderson did confirm that the motor did have ARP rod bolts installed and the heads and block have been cut to accept (or necessitate) Fel-Pro loc-wire head gaskets. Old owner said Jackson Machine Shop built the motor and I was wondering if it was ever apart even once, so that was a load off my mind. Trans blew 2 weeks after I got the motor swap done. Anderson supplied a built 200-R4 complete with deep pan and stage-right trans brake. Don't know who built it. Some shop they use out of Deleware./
3200 "9/11" converter out of Anderson's old race car (running 9.30's I think he said). Rear had an open center section with 3.73 gears (someone obviously had this one apart). I left the gears alone and put a Power-Trax locker unit in (can't stand one wheeled burn outs)/ Bought the Snow alky kit ( don't know if that can give me any hp or if I wasted my money. I hear "Julio" is the king of alky kits round hmya. That's pretty much it. I've got more questions than a civic has performance stickers in his rear window. But I'd like to know if this combo will even work. The car is quick, I was just expecting to be wow-ed. Last thing: With the stock downpipe and the old mushy trans, Anderson dynoed the car @ 390hp @the wheels with 476 lbs torque (116 octane and race chip @ 22lbs) Best time at track: 13.2@108 (new trans, no downpipe, open rear, 110 octane race chip @ 22lbs)----14.2 @102 pump gas 93 oct chip w/ current setup. Was hoping for 12.50's on street boost and mid to low 11's with race gas and chip.
Any help would be extremely appreciated.....NEED TO GO FAST.....FAST
 

corymc

Member
sounds like something dosent add up here you should be going faster than that. the cam is popular becuase Red Armstrong runs smaller cams and gets good results. so the guy you bought it from made stuff up who knows maybe somebody else can give you some help. whats done to the heads? you ever have it hooked up to a scan tool? maybe get a new chip for your set up turbo tweak is one of the better chip burners. So what is the motor now is it a hot air or a intercooled set up ? or was it a hot air to intercooled conversion?
 

Fuelie600

Active Member
First thing I would look at is increasing fuel, and air flow. Do you have an idea as to what fuel pump you have? Verify it is up to the task, as the stockers will not keep up. Does the car have an adjustable FP reg.? Do you have an FP gauge to verify pressure? As for the turbo, crank the boost 5-6 pounds as long as you can monitor, and insure a good supply of fuel/VP C116. It would be helpful to know what has been done to the heads. If they have "wire locks", chances are good that they have had some work done to them. What, and by whom would answer some questions.
You are already familiar with G body's, so you should be able to get the suspension to work and get some good 60fts.
.........and as always, you NEED a good scan tool to monitor O2's and Knock, so you can get the tune right. You seem to have a good grasp on things, so stay positive and get this car right! Brian
 

SHADOWII

Well-Known Member
I agree w/

the above comments. the scan tool is critical in knowing what is what. I'm sure that Bill probably informed you about all this info already, and we are just repeating, but you didn't make mention of it.:confused: so if it is redundent, exscuse us. the alchy is definitely a good idea and can really assist in making big gains on 93 octain. I too like the tt alchy chip. best bang for the buck imho. best to get the car running correctly w/o the alchy first, so the alchy doesn't mask any problems. once up to par, you should be able to drop into the 11's on the 93/alchy. especially if the heads,which appear to have some machine time on them, are upgraded. Sorry you had a first encounter w/a bad apple, but you will find a good group of guys here willing to help. Keep us informed. by the way, i think the 3.73's probably aren't helping at this stage. maybe someone running them can jump in w/the pro's and con's.
 

Fuelie600

Active Member
I agree the 373's are not best, but for now they will work fine. Get the motor dialed in, and then reinstall the 3.42's if you still have them. Brian
 

Sharingan3

New Member
Thanks for the help guys....
To answer a few questions a little more in depth:
1. The car has been completely converted to the 86-87 set up(no more hot air, no more hydro-boost brakes, etc.)
2. While Anderson's had the car apart, it wasn't going to cost any more to install the hi-po parts than the stock stuff. I wanted to save something for myself to do cause I want to feel like I'm driving around in MY car not Anderson's car, but in the end, I just said screw it and told him to put the bigger frontmount intercooler on it w/the 60 turbo and the 3''d-pipe
3. Heads- If I go off of what Steve told me (old owner), he said LADDs did some mild port and polish work. Like you guy's think---it would be dumb to go to such lenghts with cutting on the heads for those head gaskets and do nothing else. But again, he is a habitual liar. I was going to have Anderson install the Cometic h-gaskets and he called me up and told me they couldn't for the aforementioned reason.
4. Fuel- The car already had a Walbro 340 pump on the car with the hot wire kit. The pump crapped uot however and it was replaced with a new one before the motor work was even done.
5. Chips- Anderson sold me two of HIS chips. I think they were like $75 each. Now I've heard everyone talking about TurboTweak chips and besides replacing the injectors, that was the other thing that I thought was a problem area. But again, I'm still learning. Nothing against Anderson, he did an outstanding job on my car, treated me right, and got it back to me each time as fast as he could. However, in my opinion, if you want the BEST chip possible, you go to someone who MAKES chips for a living. Cause it's his livelyhood that's on the line as a guarantee that they work.
6. Programmer- Surprisingly, no, Mr. Bill never told me I was going to need a programmer to make all of this work. I ASSumed that all that stuff was already in the chipsets and all I needed to was swap them out and adjust the wastegate. I was told to leave on the t-brake at about 10lbs and in the race set up, the car should run low 11's all day long. At least, that's what I was told. But I know very well what 11's feels like...and that ain't it.
7. Alky- I totally agree with what was said about leaving the alky out of the equation (sorry, new to the forum and don't know all your names yet) untill
the rest is right. Bill even asked if I wanted the alky incorporated into my street chip settings and I told him no to just make it for gas only. I figured A: If I ran out of alky, the chip is still throwing out high spark and timing so I'm s.o.l. B: I could always add the alky later for alittle extra.......B is now obviously wrong because now I know the chipset has to be programmed for it.

There's some other stuff in the car I know needs to be replaced: Stock 2 piece crossover pipe needs to go (off of old motor) I replaced factory bleeder with TurboXS one ...which leads me to a question...How is the wastegate actuator supposed to be adjusted with the bleeder? Do you just crank it all the way down (short) and let the conroller do the rest, or do you set it close to the current boost level that the controller is set at. I don't want to break anything./ Car gets severe wheel hop so I bought Edelbrock's adjustable upper trailing arms (only chose Edel. over Hotchkis because you don't have to remove from the car to adjust). I still have to install, but I figured the car needs new bushing anyway and when I had it on the front end rack, the pinion angle looked 0 degrees. If I get bad wheel hop in the pouring rain with brand new tires, I figured it was a little more than just bad bushings. Also already have an airbag ready for the pass side.

I'm not very computer savvy and I type slow, so if I don't respond very quickly, that's the reason. It took me like an hour to type this. Remember : Carburetor, intake, oilpan. No computer except MSD. That's what I'm used to.

Again, thanks a million for the help.
 

Sharingan3

New Member
Oh, and I've never had it hooked up to a scan tool...I have access to a Snap-on MODIS scanner.Will that work, or do I have to buy an aftermarket one geared more towards performance? And I have a Bosch Adj fuel press. regulator.
 

ES1

Active Member
"390hp @the wheels with 476 lbs torque (116 octane and race chip @ 22lbs) Best time at track: 13.2@108 (new trans, no downpipe, open rear, 110 octane race chip @ 22lbs)----14.2 @102 pump gas 93 oct chip w/ current setup. Was hoping for 12.50's on street boost and mid to low 11's with race gas and chip".

Something does not add-up here.
If the car dynoed 390 HP then that's 11 second times.

If you ran 108MPH and only ran a 13.2 then you must have a bad 60 foot.

The race chip may of been burned for 116 octane but you ran 110 octane.
There may of been to much timing for the octane, you got knock, timing was pulled and therefore the bad times.

This is where a scantool comes in.
It will tell you if you have knock, O2s, etc.

The 102 MPH on pump gas is way low.

Like said, you need a scan-tool to tell what's going on.

Not sure on the Snap-on.

Two types of scantools.
Scanmaster that is stand alone or direct scan, t-link, or the new one from Full Throttle that run with a computer.
The ones with the computer record data.

Post your 60s time and that may tell us more.
 
Thanks for the help guys....
To answer a few questions a little more in depth:
1. The car has been completely converted to the 86-87 set up(no more hot air, no more hydro-boost brakes, etc.)
2. While Anderson's had the car apart, it wasn't going to cost any more to install the hi-po parts than the stock stuff. I wanted to save something for myself to do cause I want to feel like I'm driving around in MY car not Anderson's car, but in the end, I just said screw it and told him to put the bigger frontmount intercooler on it w/the 60 turbo and the 3''d-pipe
3. Heads- If I go off of what Steve told me (old owner), he said LADDs did some mild port and polish work. Like you guy's think---it would be dumb to go to such lenghts with cutting on the heads for those head gaskets and do nothing else. But again, he is a habitual liar. I was going to have Anderson install the Cometic h-gaskets and he called me up and told me they couldn't for the aforementioned reason.
4. Fuel- The car already had a Walbro 340 pump on the car with the hot wire kit. The pump crapped uot however and it was replaced with a new one before the motor work was even done.
5. Chips- Anderson sold me two of HIS chips. I think they were like $75 each. Now I've heard everyone talking about TurboTweak chips and besides replacing the injectors, that was the other thing that I thought was a problem area. But again, I'm still learning. Nothing against Anderson, he did an outstanding job on my car, treated me right, and got it back to me each time as fast as he could. However, in my opinion, if you want the BEST chip possible, you go to someone who MAKES chips for a living. Cause it's his livelyhood that's on the line as a guarantee that they work.
6. Programmer- Surprisingly, no, Mr. Bill never told me I was going to need a programmer to make all of this work. I ASSumed that all that stuff was already in the chipsets and all I needed to was swap them out and adjust the wastegate. I was told to leave on the t-brake at about 10lbs and in the race set up, the car should run low 11's all day long. At least, that's what I was told. But I know very well what 11's feels like...and that ain't it.
7. Alky- I totally agree with what was said about leaving the alky out of the equation (sorry, new to the forum and don't know all your names yet) untill
the rest is right. Bill even asked if I wanted the alky incorporated into my street chip settings and I told him no to just make it for gas only. I figured A: If I ran out of alky, the chip is still throwing out high spark and timing so I'm s.o.l. B: I could always add the alky later for alittle extra.......B is now obviously wrong because now I know the chipset has to be programmed for it.

There's some other stuff in the car I know needs to be replaced: Stock 2 piece crossover pipe needs to go (off of old motor) I replaced factory bleeder with TurboXS one ...which leads me to a question...How is the wastegate actuator supposed to be adjusted with the bleeder? Do you just crank it all the way down (short) and let the conroller do the rest, or do you set it close to the current boost level that the controller is set at. I don't want to break anything./ Car gets severe wheel hop so I bought Edelbrock's adjustable upper trailing arms (only chose Edel. over Hotchkis because you don't have to remove from the car to adjust). I still have to install, but I figured the car needs new bushing anyway and when I had it on the front end rack, the pinion angle looked 0 degrees. If I get bad wheel hop in the pouring rain with brand new tires, I figured it was a little more than just bad bushings. Also already have an airbag ready for the pass side.

I'm not very computer savvy and I type slow, so if I don't respond very quickly, that's the reason. It took me like an hour to type this. Remember : Carburetor, intake, oilpan. No computer except MSD. That's what I'm used to.

Again, thanks a million for the help.

Car should definately be deep in the 11's with the power it had on the dyno. Your chips are "the best" imho:D and programmed accordingly for your application and verified on the dyno.No programmer,or anything else for that matter is needed. The 116 program in the chip will absolutely not work with 110 octane.You ran at the track with the open rear using the transbrake? The 60fts have to be awful and KILLING the rest of the pass. What does the rest of the timeslip look like?
Stop over and we'll see what is going on.
 

BadAssGN

Certifiable Member
Definatly need to see your time slip as mentioned, sounds like your getting a Sucky 60ft

I'm not a big fan of the old 009 injectors, I love the MSD 50s for easy tuning and Motron 60s are easy too. just keep in mind with injector up grades you will need a new ecm chip. but an injector up grade will help out.

I was also wondering if you were using a stock MAF. you made no mention of this, I like to use the Translator and an LS1 Maf, gives you more tunability.

There are some Directscan systems forsale right now, if you plan to stick with the stock ECM for a while grab one of those and an old lap top, it allows you to data log a pass and give you an idea whats going on, the only problem is gm uses a short band 02 system and it's not very accurate. again it will give you some valuable information, like the function of the maf. a lot of aftermarket maf sensors don't hit the max value of 255. it will also tell you if your TPS value is hitting full throttle. and most importantly if you are getting Knock retard, as if you are the ecm pulls timing. I assume you have at least a knock gauge? it kinda sounds like you've been tuning without all the facts.

Good luck
 

yullose

Certified Gun Nut
80% of the problem is probably the way you launch the car.

The biggest thing I noticed, going from a nitrous'd BBC to a turbo Buick, is that you don't launch the same way. :D

With a BBC and nitrous, you mash the pedal and the wheels are in the air instantly.

With a turbo Buick, you 'gotta get the boost built-up before launching...either by standing on the brakes or using a transbrake...
You can't just mash the pedal on the last yellow.

Neither of those methods will work with an open-rear.

I wouldn't even waste a trip to the dragstrip unless I had a healthy posi or a spool in the car.

I try to stage last with my car... (Letting the other guy get in the beams before me)
I'll roll further into the beams, and as soon as the "staged" bulb is lit, I hit the transbrake and stand on the throttle.
By the time the last yellow is on, it's still not quite ready to go... It may take another second or two until boost is high enough to let go of the transbrake button.

Not a good way to bracket race, but a great combo for street racing. The slow spool-up is a perfect traction control device.
 

Sharingan3

New Member
The 60 ft was in the 2.40's all passes. I know the 60 ft is a big deal on et however, 108 mph says 12.50 et. If I would have seen , lets say 118mph, it would be a different story. I can run the chevelle with a 2.00 60 ft @ 12.00 or a 1.52 60 ft and pull a 11.35 et. However both passes yeild a 115-116 mph despite a half sec in 60 ft. From my understanding, with a turbo or blower car...mph is the name of the gameto tell if you're making power. And hi Mr. Bill. Didn't know you were watching. To put it more clearly, when the car was dynoed, Bill didn't know what gas I had in the car. So, even though the chip is burned for 110, 116 was put in the car to ensure that octane was not an issue. The 60 sucked also because of bad wheel hop on the launch. That's why I got the adj. trailing arms. and will replace the lower bushings when I do the whole job. They're all shot. Tracks closed so all I can do is tune on the street ( verrry carefully of course). So if I need a scanner, I'd rather know now So I can do all this stuff (i.e. injectors, alky, etc.)before the season starts up again. And if I do get a scanner, I'll probably need help with what all these #'s mean. Lots of new stufff.

thanks.
 

Sharingan3

New Member
And thanks for the invite Bill. I figured I would give you guys a little break from seeing this heap for a while, though. Figured I would do a couple things to the car I know had to be done anyway like control arms, bushings, (though I've never had a problem with a g-body and wheel hop before this one). I even took the turbo off and opened the wastegate porthole at my friends shop (I think you were on vacation at the time...) because I was getting boost creep. Combination of not wanting to bother you with it and not wanting the car to be down for a couple days. If I'm going to own one of these things I need to work on it and learn about it. I'll have to check the writing on the chip again, too. I'm pretty sure it was burned at 110 octane. I've been waiting till I fill it up with 110 again. It was never dynoed again with the new trans and the downpipe installed. Maybe we can see if I can use this alky kit I have, too and have another chip burned for that. I'll call in the next week or so and if you're not too busy, I'll bring it in and see what you think.

Thanks again.
 
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