Some of my experience with the Bison alky plate amoung other things.

So, I have a question, is a power plate still used or are they eliminated with the direct injection plate?

My ASSumption would yes....but maybe not. Maybe the PP would sit atop the injection plate therefore distributing the air and not affecting the spray pattern of the alky.
 
My ASSumption would yes....but maybe not. Maybe the PP would sit atop the injection plate therefore distributing the air and not affecting the spray pattern of the alky.

I have power Plate on mine and it doesn't interfere at all. My power plate is actually on the bottom of the injector plate. However, it could probably go either way I guess.


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Pronto, how does one go about logging alky pressure with the powerlogger. I have all this crap hooked up but dont know how to use any of it. Scanmaster, powerlogger, wideband. It all works great and looks good but i cant seem to get the hang of making any adjustments.
The 5v signal from the sensors would go to the block that the Scanmaster and wb go to in the port marked 5v. You'll need to name them and do any adjustments in the .ini file to calibrate them so they read correctly. You'll be able to view and log the pressures the sensors see. I suggest searching for logging fuel with powerlogger. There are lots of threads on it. Lets not divert this thread.
 
There's 2 open spots for logging 5v signal sensors with the powerlogger. You can log both the fuel pressure and alky pressure. That would be a good reference point. The test kit is great because aside from finding the max pressure the pump is making, you can turn on the system and leave it running while checking for leaks.
So, I have a question, is a power plate still used or are they eliminated with the direct injection plate?

I kept the power plate. The other thing that concerned me with the nozzle setup with the power plate is you will get a certain amount of puddling on top plate. No way to quantify or judge the impact by me in my garage though. Getting rid of that variable has got to help. I still have a stock manifold with the EGR tower. Installed Bison's plate on top of the PP. I am installing a transducer too, hopefully will get a new pump soon, but understand if there is any delay due to the hurricane.
 
my 2 cents.... I haven't used Bison's plate yet but its hard to argue with the logic behind it. I know there have been many people who have reported having issues in cold weather with alky looking like the main culprit due to unequal distribution to the cylinders. This could be due to way more alky than needed at low boost, weak pumps, leaks, etc contributing to bad injection but the plate doesn't seem to have much drawback to rule these out. But like Bison said in so many words, we still have a lot of stupid people who blow things up no matter how good the distribution is. Logging, tuning, etc also play a large role in getting the most out of alky and being safe.

That being said, I wouldn't say pre TB alky is junk as a lot of the fastest guys have used this successfully. Its just that this plate is a more ideal solution that can minimize any distribution issues and potentially make more power. It would be great to test on my stock turbo engine I am playing with as I am injecting a ton of alky pre TB lol. Especially once it gets cold.

One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that I have seen a lot of IACs taken out with alky, including a couple of mine. One helped take out my XFI. The cheap IACs won't last long at all. This seems a non issue with Bison's plate.
 
my 2 cents.... I haven't used Bison's plate yet but its hard to argue with the logic behind it. I know there have been many people who have reported having issues in cold weather with alky looking like the main culprit due to unequal distribution to the cylinders. This could be due to way more alky than needed at low boost, weak pumps, leaks, etc contributing to bad injection but the plate doesn't seem to have much drawback to rule these out. But like Bison said in so many words, we still have a lot of stupid people who blow things up no matter how good the distribution is. Logging, tuning, etc also play a large role in getting the most out of alky and being safe.

That being said, I wouldn't say pre TB alky is junk as a lot of the fastest guys have used this successfully. Its just that this plate is a more ideal solution that can minimize any distribution issues and potentially make more power. It would be great to test on my stock turbo engine I am playing with as I am injecting a ton of alky pre TB lol. Especially once it gets cold.

One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that I have seen a lot of IACs taken out with alky, including a couple of mine. One helped take out my XFI. The cheap IACs won't last long at all. This seems a non issue with Bison's plate.

Awesome post! And I love what you've been doing with your stock motor thread too. Tell you what, my car is about to be down for a trans swap and cooling system update. So, if u like I can ship you my plate (virtually no miles on it - maybe 30 and trans started flaring). And you are more than welcome to borrow it and test away (I have stock power Plate with mine if u want to use it too). Anyways just a thought to better the results on this new product.
 
That being said, I wouldn't say pre TB alky is junk as a lot of the fastest guys have used this successfully.
Yup exactly.im not against anything new and the plate looks cool and i havent tuned or ran one or pulled plugs and looked at each cylinder but when I read these threads I question the validity of statements made about g forces and colder weather.
 
But like Bison said in so many words, we still have a lot of stupid people who blow things up no matter how good the distribution is
And he is totally right.if the plate is easier to tune over say a twin nozzle that would be advantageous for the guy coming from a single or wants more alky vs gas.
 
.......So, if u like I can ship you my plate (virtually no miles on it - maybe 30 and trans started flaring). And you are more than welcome to borrow it and test away (I have stock power Plate with mine if u want to use it too).

Thanks for the offer... haven't decided what I will be doing next with the combo. I am running a stock plenum and TB right now with a power plate. I am currently injecting alky with M15, M10 and M5 nozzles pre TB lol.

Like Bison has mentioned.... a main benefit is using alky as a fuel in the cylinder. I obviously don't need this much alky to just cool the air charge. So if you are trying to get a bunch of alky equally into the cylinders then port injection obviously makes sense. Another good question with the plate is whether adding another small nozzle to cool the air charge before the TB would make any difference?
 
How does it compare to a dual alky setup as far as volume ? From what I understand is that u don't need to step to a dual nozzle setup till you are tapping on the 9s ?
 
That is the whole dilemma... the question is what is the minimum you need vs how much can you safely inject vs the benefit of injecting as much as possible. Used to say don't run more than you need. Then if you inject more than you need then it may not distribute correctly so be careful. And with Bison's plate it could be inject as much as possible if you can tune around it for the benefits of it as a fuel.

If you just want to turn up the boost some and make good power then yes, you don't need a ton of alky. But if you want to maximize power with what you've got then how much alky can you inject safely? I'm injecting a ton of alky in my stock combo and making really good power, so there isn't a drawback to injecting a crazy amount. The question is.. is it more than I need or do I need MORE! lol
 
Thanks for the offer... haven't decided what I will be doing next with the combo. I am running a stock plenum and TB right now with a power plate. I am currently injecting alky with M15, M10 and M5 nozzles pre TB lol.

Like Bison has mentioned.... a main benefit is using alky as a fuel in the cylinder. I obviously don't need this much alky to just cool the air charge. So if you are trying to get a bunch of alky equally into the cylinders then port injection obviously makes sense. Another good question with the plate is whether adding another small nozzle to cool the air charge before the TB would make any difference?

If you look at curves of saturation temperature vs pressure for methanol, the conclusion for a car with even a marginal intercooler is none. At 0 psig, Tsat is around 150 F, at 22 psig Tsat is around 200F. The alky does not flash at those pressures below those temperatures. The only heat transfer then would be based on the droplet size and heat conduction with the air and evaporation. I don't think the evaporation would be significant in the fraction of a second it takes for the air to move from the point of the nozzle to the cylinder. All of the benefit is on the compression stroke in the cylinder. The pre turbo nozzle I think would help. When the turbo is compressing the air, the heat of compression along with heating due to inefficiencies, will flash the alky taking the full effect of the latent heat of vaporization of the alky, and reduce the specific volume of the air and allow the turbo to move more mass flow or operate at a lower back pressure.
 
If you look at curves of saturation temperature vs pressure for methanol, the conclusion for a car with even a marginal intercooler is none. At 0 psig, Tsat is around 150 F, at 22 psig Tsat is around 200F. The alky does not flash at those pressures below those temperatures. The only heat transfer then would be based on the droplet size and heat conduction with the air and evaporation. I don't think the evaporation would be significant in the fraction of a second it takes for the air to move from the point of the nozzle to the cylinder. All of the benefit is on the compression stroke in the cylinder. The pre turbo nozzle I think would help. When the turbo is compressing the air, the heat of compression along with heating due to inefficiencies, will flash the alky taking the full effect of the latent heat of vaporization of the alky, and reduce the specific volume of the air and allow the turbo to move more mass flow or operate at a lower back pressure.

Yes


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If you look at curves of saturation temperature vs pressure for methanol.....

You mean these curves......?
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/...mbers-not-matching.378231/page-2#post-3028967

I agree that there isn't much vaporization pre cylinder if you read the link above, but I wouldn't say there is no air cooling going on. I just wonder if putting a small nozzle farther away would help maximize some air cooling thru exaporation, etc.

As far as pre turbo and lowering backpressure, I agree and thats why I have an M5 nozzle pre turbo. Hopefully I'll see an improvement since I'm backpressure limited on the stocker. Best setup may be small pre turbo nozzle plus the alky plate...

I think stock intercoolers and similar benefit the most from alky because the heat soak gets the temperatures so high pre throttle body that the alky can flash and lower the temps down quickly. Going on alky on these setups can't be beat because of this. Better combos with more efficient turbos and intercoolers don't reach these temps so the main benefit is in cylinder cooling. But on a hot day at the beginning of a run the alky probably helps cool the air down.
 
You mean these curves......?
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/...mbers-not-matching.378231/page-2#post-3028967

I agree that there isn't much vaporization pre cylinder if you read the link above, but I wouldn't say there is no air cooling going on. I just wonder if putting a small nozzle farther away would help maximize some air cooling thru exaporation, etc.

As far as pre turbo and lowering backpressure, I agree and thats why I have an M5 nozzle pre turbo. Hopefully I'll see an improvement since I'm backpressure limited on the stocker. Best setup may be small pre turbo nozzle plus the alky plate...

I think stock intercoolers and similar benefit the most from alky because the heat soak gets the temperatures so high pre throttle body that the alky can flash and lower the temps down quickly. Going on alky on these setups can't be beat because of this. Better combos with more efficient turbos and intercoolers don't reach these temps so the main benefit is in cylinder cooling. But on a hot day at the beginning of a run the alky probably helps cool the air down.


Yes .. if there wasn't any benefit 8 second street cars running alky on top of E85 as primary would pickup little to nothing .. but they ARE !
 
You mean these curves......?
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/...mbers-not-matching.378231/page-2#post-3028967

I agree that there isn't much vaporization pre cylinder if you read the link above, but I wouldn't say there is no air cooling going on. I just wonder if putting a small nozzle farther away would help maximize some air cooling thru exaporation, etc.

As far as pre turbo and lowering backpressure, I agree and thats why I have an M5 nozzle pre turbo. Hopefully I'll see an improvement since I'm backpressure limited on the stocker. Best setup may be small pre turbo nozzle plus the alky plate...

I think stock intercoolers and similar benefit the most from alky because the heat soak gets the temperatures so high pre throttle body that the alky can flash and lower the temps down quickly. Going on alky on these setups can't be beat because of this. Better combos with more efficient turbos and intercoolers don't reach these temps so the main benefit is in cylinder cooling. But on a hot day at the beginning of a run the alky probably helps cool the air down.


Yes, the Y axis is PSIA though.

Once you hit saturation temperature though, you will not cool anymore through the meth flashing to a vapor, all cooling after hitting Tsat will be through conduction and evaporation. If you do not run an intercooler, or you running intake temps above Tsat of the meth, then you can get a bump through the meth cooling. There is no way to quantify the temperature of a wet air stream with a temp sensor, it would take a pretty sophisticated analysis to figure that out.
 
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