replacing factory 10 gauge wire did wonders

[A2000RICH]

I'm wondering, WHY would anyone need to run a 200-240 amp alternator to their car?? Is everyone running dual Weldon fuel pumps? That'd be the only real reason you'd need it - and you would have to upgrade your battery (or batteries) to support it.

The factory OEM battery cable uses 8 gauge wire, not 10 gauge wire, to the alternator. The starter feed is 4 gauge.

The standard ground connection to the chassis is 10 gauge and the negative battery cable to the block is 4 gauge. If you've added current-hogging accessories to your GN, it would be wise to add an additional ground between the engine block and the chassis - use a BRAIDED flexible ground strap or arc welding cable with soldered terminals.

8 gauge wire will support 75 amps, 6 gauge, around 100 amps. With a fully charged battery, your stock alternator never delivers more than around 55 amps, even with every conceivable accessory turned on full-boat all at once. This would include low impedance injectors, high output coil, upgraded fuel pumps, power windows up all at the same time, electric seats moving, and so on.

That is, unless the battery is deeply discharged or has shorted cells. Then the alternator goes into overdrive.

You should never need any more than a 6 gauge cable connecting the alternator to the battery, even with a 200 amp alternator. I'd recommend 6 gauge if the battery is in the trunk, since it needs to travel maybe 14 feet to get there.

some guys car starts better with a larger wire from the alternator to the battery--------pretty wierd since the starting current all takes a different path on another wire altogether----------john-------can't agree with you more--------this thread is ridiculous---------been hearing it from the stereo guys for 20 years-------it displays total ignorance of simple physics--------anyone wanting to prove this nonsense to themselves can do a quick simple check----------just take one half of a jumple cable set and fasten one end to your alternator output stud and the other to the positive post on the battery---------see if anything changes--------NOTHING will change unless you have a bad crimp on either end of the factory wire in which case all will be just fine if you install a new connector
------------to most electricity is like magic since its invisible and it conjures up voodoo fixes......................RC

 

[Mike Licht]

the recipie I use is a 4 ga from the charging post to the bat, a 4 ga from the neg of the battery to the fender and a braided ground strap from the engine to the chassis. I have seen this transform some cars like I never though possible. I have also seen it do very little so I would do it. One thing for sure, it can not hurt you at all.
Mike

 

[Sal 87WE2]

Something that i notice everytime i strip a factory wire i see corrosion inside the wire. Is just because i am in a humid climate (Houston, TX)? Maybe people are seeing an increase in conductivity by installing new wires because the old wires are corroded inside the insulation?

Anyone car to comment on this?

I was thinking about upgrading my ground at the fender because i like to have the same gauge from my chassis ground as the alt to battery. I may just go 6 gauge on ground and battery to alt since it wont be too expensive, it wont hurt anything, AND it will be easy to do...

Peace of mind?

 

[Fast4Ward]

i did this about a week ago and noted windows are faster and scanmaster now does not dip below mid 13's. i would say it made some difference.

 

[GNRick]

Well, John, you might not agree with my findings....my volt gauge always read low, like under 12 volts, when I had the A/C on, headlights on, and radio (with a couple extra amps) on all at the same time. This is at idle. When driving, volts were mid 13's. I just ran an 8 guage wire from battery to alternator (left the "factory" wire connected) and difference is like night and day. Volt gauge immediately ran up to near 14 volts, then after idle dropped to around 800rpm, gauge stayed at mid 13's with all accessories on. I'm very glad I saw this thread. John- I'm using your positive battery cable. Maybe you should offer one with a 4 gauge wire to the alternator?

I just re-read John's explanation. Since the factory wire is 8 gauge from battery to alternator, I ran a thicker gauge wire than factory....maybe 6 gauge (it isn't written on the wire). Sorry for any confusion. Maybe Richard can do some sort of "testing" at BG....I'll bring the jumper cable. Would be interesting.

 

[A2000RICH]

I just re-read John's explanation. Since the factory wire is 8 gauge from battery to alternator, I ran a thicker gauge wire than factory....maybe 6 gauge (it isn't written on the wire). Sorry for any confusion. Maybe Richard can do some sort of "testing" at BG....I'll bring the jumper cable. Would be interesting.

sure--------i'll bring the biggest set of jumper cables you have ever seen------i've used them to start locomotives--------solid copper clamps-------and they will still not make a difference unless the factory wire that is adequate in size is somehow damaged..............RC

does anyone know how to do the math to show why this thread is so silly???---------aside from damaged connections this is just not scientific and one thing is for sure--------electricity really sticks to math ----------they are inseperable--------at 50 amps just how much voltage drop is there in 6 feet of # 8 wire vs 6 feet of # 4------i'll drop one clue--------there is about twice the amount of drop but just how much is it and how much will it really affect our cars ???

 

[A2000RICH]

Something that i notice everytime i strip a factory wire i see corrosion inside the wire. Is just because i am in a humid climate (Houston, TX)? Maybe people are seeing an increase in conductivity by installing new wires because the old wires are corroded inside the insulation?

Anyone car to comment on this?

I was thinking about upgrading my ground at the fender because i like to have the same gauge from my chassis ground as the alt to battery. I may just go 6 gauge on ground and battery to alt since it wont be too expensive, it wont hurt anything, AND it will be easy to do...

Peace of mind?

sal---------enlarging the ground from the battery to the chassis is going to do nothing as well--------when the engine is running the ground current path is from the alternator case > engine block > body > accessories-------when the engine is running the battery is not a source of power and can be considered a load just like all the other accessories

 

[GNVenom]

Something that i notice everytime i strip a factory wire i see corrosion inside the wire. Is just because i am in a humid climate (Houston, TX)? Maybe people are seeing an increase in conductivity by installing new wires because the old wires are corroded inside the insulation?

You are not seeing corrosion, but rather "oxidation". The wire used on all of our cars is technically "oxygen-free" copper, but eventually oxygen gets to it and starts the copper oxidizing. It may eventually corrode, but you'll see corrosion closer to the battery than further away. The acid adds to that.

Oxidation is unavoidable; it's the kind that turns a new penny old looking, and you will find that the wire inside the insulation looks the same. It really has no bearing in the electrical system unless the contact between the crimped terminal and the wire itself becomes oxidized. Then you'll see high resistance and many problem relating to that.

 

[Sal 87WE2]

You are not seeing corrosion, but rather "oxidation". The wire used on all of our cars is technically "oxygen-free" copper, but eventually oxygen gets to it and starts the copper oxidizing. It may eventually corrode, but you'll see corrosion closer to the battery than further away. The acid adds to that.

Oxidation is unavoidable; it's the kind that turns a new penny old looking, and you will find that the wire inside the insulation looks the same. It really has no bearing in the electrical system unless the contact between the crimped terminal and the wire itself becomes oxidized. Then you'll see high resistance and many problem relating to that.

Thanks for the explanation John, i always thought it was corrosion :redface:

 

[Adam Connell]

sure--------i'll bring the biggest set of jumper cables you have ever seen------i've used them to start locomotives--------solid copper clamps-------and they will still not make a difference unless the factory wire that is adequate in size is somehow damaged..............RC

does anyone know how to do the math to show why this thread is so silly???---------aside from damaged connections this is just not scientific and one thing is for sure--------electricity really sticks to math ----------they are inseperable--------at 50 amps just how much voltage drop is there in 6 feet of # 8 wire vs 6 feet of # 4------i'll drop one clue--------there is about twice the amount of drop but just how much is it and how much will it really affect our cars ???

"NO stupid engineer, look, listen, learn...." this is my favorite quote from one of my favorite engineering teachers, and I really think you need to take a step back here and consider other options. I think there is a lot more at play here, and all you're doing is telling us we are wrong when I KNOW I am at least right.

Theory is great, BUT if one factor in ANY theory is even slightly off it does not apply any more...

What you are trying to tell me, a classically trained musician who is a semester away from my mechanical engineering degree, is that there is no reason I should feel a difference in my car since installing this "miracle wire"... Well here here Mr. Electrical Engineer, I have spent my entire life learning to hear and feel the slightest differences in frequencies and even isolate them from a chaos of noise. What I am trying to say is, I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IF I SAY I FEEL SOMETHING!

You've been 100% right up until now, on should, could, and would BUT you're forgetting that theory DOES NOT APPLY TO FAULTY 22 YEAR OLD WIRING!

I said earlier that It made all the difference in the world, and still today my car is running the best it ever has in the 4 years I've owned it, and this simple mod has inspired me to chase the rest of my electrical demons because I have obviously left a possibly significant amount of performance on the table.

You mentioned in another post about the factory wire being junk, and what I believe you're not seeing here is the fact that most of our wires have been junk, thus leaving the battery slightly drained, and overall performance has suffered.

Im not trying to be a jerk here, but coming from another (almost) engineer, I think you're wasting your time because it really does not matter if you run a larger than necessary wire. That's the beauty of electricity: it's lazy, and will always take the path of least resistance.

So my real question to you out of all of this is, what is it going to hurt if we replace a broken wire with a slightly oversize replacement?... My personal answer is, it wont hurt a damn thing...

You are an asset to this forum, and your knowledge is priceless, and I've learned quite a bit from some of your post... but I don't take kindly to being told I am an idiot.

 

[Buix893]

Yup yup....it's like running a front mount on a stock car...do you need it?..no..but it won't hurt and if anything will help..so tomm ima get a bigger cable just for insurance...:biggrin:

 

[A2000RICH]

"NO stupid engineer, look, listen, learn...." this is my favorite quote from one of my favorite engineering teachers, and I really think you need to take a step back here and consider other options. I think there is a lot more at play here, and all you're doing is telling us we are wrong when I KNOW I am at least right.

Theory is great, BUT if one factor in ANY theory is even slightly off it does not apply any more...

What you are trying to tell me, a classically trained musician who is a semester away from my mechanical engineering degree, is that there is no reason I should feel a difference in my car since installing this "miracle wire"... Well here here Mr. Electrical Engineer, I have spent my entire life learning to hear and feel the slightest differences in frequencies and even isolate them from a chaos of noise. What I am trying to say is, I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IF I SAY I FEEL SOMETHING!

You've been 100% right up until now, on should, could, and would BUT you're forgetting that theory DOES NOT APPLY TO FAULTY 22 YEAR OLD WIRING!

I said earlier that It made all the difference in the world, and still today my car is running the best it ever has in the 4 years I've owned it, and this simple mod has inspired me to chase the rest of my electrical demons because I have obviously left a possibly significant amount of performance on the table.

You mentioned in another post about the factory wire being junk, and what I believe you're not seeing here is the fact that most of our wires have been junk, thus leaving the battery slightly drained, and overall performance has suffered.

Im not trying to be a jerk here, but coming from another (almost) engineer, I think you're wasting your time because it really does not matter if you run a larger than necessary wire. That's the beauty of electricity: it's lazy, and will always take the path of least resistance.

So my real question to you out of all of this is, what is it going to hurt if we replace a broken wire with a slightly oversize replacement?... My personal answer is, it wont hurt a damn thing...

You are an asset to this forum, and your knowledge is priceless, and I've learned quite a bit from some of your post... but I don't take kindly to being told I am an idiot.

thanks for the compliment but first I did not call you an idiot--------being ignorant of facts is not being an idiot----it just means that on a particular subject you are devoid of facts-------i am sure Albert Einstein was ignorant about at least a few things yet he was a rather smart fellow-------that said if all you did is change a wire to a different one and things are better i am saying if you had put a NEW wire of the original size in as well things would also be ok----------its not the size of the wire that did it if thats all you changed-----------as a new engineer starting out let me give you some really good advice----------NEVER trust your senses without verifying with the scientific principle--------you clearly attribute the improvement to the wire size/not its condition-------the scientific principle would have required a comparison of two new wires of different size in order to make a claim that size had anything to do with the change-------perhaps you might do well to brush up on those principles--------that may not sit well with you right now but someday when you have enough work history behind you it will make sense--------engineers that fail to keep this in perspective seldom achieve greatness------------as for those calculations my math says that the drop in a 8 gauge wire with 50 amps would be less than a quarter of a volt and by increasing the size to 4 gauge the drop would reduce to a little under a tenth of a volt--------as an engineer i am sure you know how to confirm those calculations-------now how would your claim of the change to 4 gauge result in a 2 volt difference--------please tell me you cannot feel wire and use a voltmeter to measure it ????????--------speaking of feeling-------the scientific principle would suggest a thermocouple or IR meter to measure the temp of that alternator instead of your hand---------there are just so many things in your post that don't add up---------with the smaller gauge wire you claim the alternator ran hotter???--------fact is that IF there were a high resistance on the output of the alternator it would run cooler since the resistance of the wire would have essentially raised the thevenin equivalent of the alternators output and reduced the IR losses in the stator windings and diodes----------i do a lot of alternator testing and have been for several decades--------in my shop i have a Crumbliss 2115 alternator tester and one thing i can promise you is that alternators only get hot if they are loaded with a LOW resistance----------i have some advice for your teacher that says "look listen learn"---------I suggest "test-retest-confirm-determine why"--------if you can't determine why keep on till you do.............RC

 

[QUIP'6']

all i can say is it worked for me! as well as others here i see. i am not saying that i noticed and increase in 2 volts thats not it. the gain i seen was that after the car warmed up the volts only dropped a 1/4 volt like 14.1 to 13.9. then when i run all my accessories the volts used to drop 1.5 to 2 volts at idle well now they drop 1/4 to 1/2 volt. i am sure that everyones alternator and battery is different in stability and power output which would result in these variances. i think a larger wire benefits with less resistance and resulting in a more stable voltage. a smaller wire under higher demands would create more resistance and as a result the wire would heat up causeing less conductivity.

 

[GNRick]

RC- will you hanging around Kirban's tent like in years past? If so, we can do the "alternator challenge" there! Nobody even questioned me last year when I drove in to have Pete help adjust my window and you tested my power master. You also helped me with the stranded wire for my stereo...if you can get some more of that from your buddy in CA I would be most grateful. Still have noise in my radio since I didn't have more of your wire to hook up to my other amplifier. I'll bring Jill a biscuit. Now back to the wire discussion......

 

[dfirefighter]

Yea...post pics. So all ya do is run a 4 guage wire from the alt to the POS terminal on the battery?

x2 for pics!

 

[DR BOOST]

there is no reason to run a heavy wire to the frame since nothing is grounded to the frame. its completely isolated from the body by the bushings and motor/trans mounts

 

[realspartan]

Hi guys,

No reason for anyone to get insulted and/or offended. To each their own. I did this to my car and I agree everything works better. I did it first to my 76 Cadillac with the same results. I did this because I installed a nice sound system with a capacitor in each car. I tried this modification on my Cadillac first just by chance because I wanted my battery to get maximum charge from the alternator (rebuilt from 80A OEM to 100A). It worked well, the capacitor voltage readout showed a good improvement; same on the GN (120A OEM). I left the existing factory wire connected on both cars. The Caddy wire was thinner than that of the GN.

Regards,
Realspartan

 

["More Boost"]

subscribed, and also waiting for pics..............:smile:

 

[QUIP'6']

what do you guys need pictures for. you just run the wire from the alternator behind the tensioner over the timing cover and down to the oil pump then up to the battery or just do it any old way you feel like it!!! as for the frame not bieng a ground i woulod have to dissagree. yes it does have rubber insulators but it does tranfer a ground thru the bolts as they do touch in places. thjis is why they recommend grounding the fuel pump from the gastank to the frame.

 

[Buix893]

Can ya get the wire from like NAPA or Autozone??? 6 or 4 gauge wire?