Red Armstrong Quad Air XP Plus Fuel Pump Information

[TurboTom72]

I have almost every GSXtra going back to the late 80's. Red has been in the game a long time and frequently wins whatever race class he is entered in. I have been a member here for several years and don't remember anybody complaining about his pumps. I have been thru three failed Walbros over the years. I put in one of Red's pumps 2 years ago and no issues have cropped up. I have read about needing to replace the return line with some of the new pumps out there and I would really like to avoid having to do that. At this point in time I am a firm believer in Red's pump and would recommend it to anybody.

GNRick, I just want to clarify by saying I have nothing bad to say about Red or his products, I currently run an XP plus with no issues. The reputation of his pumps definitely influenced my purchase at the time and his methods of producing his products had never been a concern of mine. What I am saying is that I disagree with the following statement made by Ttype6:

No,it is a pump that is built to Red's specs by Walbro. You can't buy a Walbro and modify it to flow as well as Red's.

and

He does override the relief valve himself to insure that maximum pressure is available when it is needed most at maximum rpm and boost. This doesn't make the pump flow more volume. If the pump was the same internally as all the other 255s,it would flow the same. It flows more. Just like the regulator he sells,it looks like an exact duplicate of the one Kirban sells.It is on the outside,but not on the inside. If you come up with a modification to a product and ask a manufacturer to build the product with these modifications,it is common that they will only sell the modified product to you as you own the design. The industry rates pumps at a low pressure. The only way to determine which one of the 255s flows the best is to measure the flow at 70 lbs of pressure where we need them to flow. This is where Red's pumps shine.

I am/was not the initiating party in this debate. Ttype6 took it upon himself to jump into a tech support thread I posted in and raise this unrelated discussion amidst a troubleshooting conversation. The debate began by Ttype6 trying to correct my statement that "I had an XP pump currently, and it was basically a Walbro modded by Red". Rather than go into a full debate about it in someone else's tech support thread, I exercised proper etiquette and started my own thread. We can now discuss further and give Ttype6 an opprotunity to fully argue his point and come to the table with some real facts to substantiate his claims. It also allows for some of our in house industry specialists to chime in with their knowledge on the subject as well. I have yet to see any substantiating evidence to his claims. If I was wrong, prove it with facts. I think the community has the right to know the truth if someone can present facts that would prove otherwise.

 

[Racetronix]

What marketing hype. There's no marketing at all for Red's pumps.

It's what is fed to people over the phone and spread around in small doses by his flock of sheep.

 

[Ttype6]

GNRick, I just want to clarify by saying I have nothing bad to say about Red or his products, I currently run an XP plus with no issues. The reputation of his pumps definitely influenced my purchase at the time and his methods of producing his products had never been a concern of mine. What I am saying is that I disagree with the following statement made by Ttype6:


and


I am/was not the initiating party in this debate. Ttype6 took it upon himself to jump into a tech support thread I posted in and raise this unrelated discussion amidst a troubleshooting conversation. The debate began by Ttype6 trying to correct my statement that "I had an XP pump currently, and it was basically a Walbro modded by Red". Rather than go into a full debate about it in someone else's tech support thread, I exercised proper etiquette and started my own thread. We can now discuss further and give Ttype6 an opprotunity to fully argue his point and come to the table with some real facts to substantiate his claims. It also allows for some of our in house industry specialists to chime in with their knowledge on the subject as well. I have yet to see any substantiating evidence to his claims. If I was wrong, prove it with facts. I think the community has the right to know the truth if someone can present facts that would prove otherwise.

Mike posted that there is no way to modify a pump after it has been manufactured. Do you still dispute this.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

It's what is fed to people over the phone and spread around in small doses by his flock of sheep.

So people recommending a specific product that worked good for them makes them Sheep?
Now you are calling every single person that recommends your product sheep.
what is funny is how hell bent some get over the mentioning of Red and his products.

 

[Mike Licht]

Actually what I said was "other than the relief valve" there is no way to modify the pump after it is manufactured. I was very good friends with the Walbro people, I sold Walbro pumps when other vendors including Red were selling Delco and calling Walbro junk. A few months later they all had Walbro and that was the standard for years. The Delco pumps that were sold at that time we also modified, "the relief valves were shimmed with copper wire". When I questioned the TI folks about this "mystery pump" I was told by the director of Aftermarket pump sales and the head engineer in a face to face meeting "Mike, if we had a better pump we would not just be selling it to one person, we don't do that, everyone would be getting it. We want to sell pumps not lose dealers" The head engineer also further explained that the armatures and parts internally of the time would not stand up to any more flow without failure or excessive current draw. I will leave this alone now sorry if I offended anyone by jumping in this way.
Mike

 

[Racetronix]

So people recommending a specific product that worked good for them makes them Sheep?
Now you are calling every single person that recommends your product sheep.
what is funny is how hell bent some get over the mentioning of Red and his products.

Since our specs and features are published in black and white customers can make educated decisions based on technical fact. Sheep on the other hand...

 

[Boost231]

LMFAO, Thanks for the good laugh Ttype6. Im still fighting a fuel warming issue here, maybe my hobbs switch is BO?

 

[TurboTom72]

Mike posted that there is no way to modify a pump after it has been manufactured. Do you still dispute this.

No, I don't dispute it. Do you?

He does override the relief valve himself to insure that maximum pressure is available when it is needed most at maximum rpm and boost. This doesn't make the pump flow more volume. If the pump was the same internally as all the other 255s,it would flow the same. It flows more.

I dispute the idea that anyone is producing pumps to his specs. I feel he is buying off the shelf pumps and reselling them as his own, which is fine. I own a business and I'm very familiar with the principals of retail and resale. Capitolism at it's finest.

Do you dispute the fact that the earlier Walbros could be modified by shimming the pressure relief spring? Or the fact that he modified his earlier model pumps, but no longer does due to the change in Walbro's pump design?

I'm no expert, nor do I claim to be. I may not post a lot, but I do read a lot. My argument is based both on common sense, and what I've read about the topic matter for several years now. I didn't spawn this debate. I was merely trying to offer some troubleshooting advice based on my own experience. You were the one trying to school me as I recall, and that's fine. I'm a firm believer in you learn something new everyday. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, all I'm asking is to present the facts that substantiate your info/position/claims, and educate everyone.

 

[TurboTom72]

Actually what I said was "other than the relief valve" there is no way to modify the pump after it is manufactured. I was very good friends with the Walbro people, I sold Walbro pumps when other vendors including Red were selling Delco and calling Walbro junk. A few months later they all had Walbro and that was the standard for years. The Delco pumps that were sold at that time we also modified, "the relief valves were shimmed with copper wire". When I questioned the TI folks about this "mystery pump" I was told by the director of Aftermarket pump sales and the head engineer in a face to face meeting "Mike, if we had a better pump we would not just be selling it to one person, we don't do that, everyone would be getting it. We want to sell pumps not lose dealers" The head engineer also further explained that the armatures and parts internally of the time would not stand up to any more flow without failure or excessive current draw. I will leave this alone now sorry if I offended anyone by jumping in this way.
Mike

Thanks Mike! So there you go. I actually thought I had read that the newer pump design was changed so that the pressure relief spring could no longer be tampered with. I guess I stand corrected! Like I said, learn something new everyday, and I'm certainly no expert in the subject matter. Just want to know all the facts, and that Mike, I'd consider some pretty factual info you've presented!

 

[bison]

Someone back to back the pumps and report the data. Control as much as possible .same sender, same voltage, same testing lines, regulator, etc.

 

[TurboTom72]

Someone back to back the pumps and report the data. Control as much as possible .same sender, same voltage, same testing lines, regulator, etc.

And visually check for shimming of presure relief spring as well.

 

[Ttype6]

So people recommending a specific product that worked good for them makes them Sheep?
Now you are calling every single person that recommends your product sheep.
what is funny is how hell bent some get over the mentioning of Red and his products.

Those same people don't respond well when you use their words against them.

Someone back to back the pumps and report the data. Control as much as possible .same sender, same voltage, same testing lines, regulator, etc.

This has been done so many times. Asking someone to do it again implies that you don't believe the results of these past comparisons.
This thread was started to find out how Red's pumps are produced. One of the keys to figuring out the answer lies in the fact that his pumps outflow all other 255 lph pumps on the market. If this is true,we know that they must have one or more internal design differences. I hope we can all agree that Red can't possibly take a Walbro pump,disassemble it,modify it,and reassemble it.If we can all agree on this the only question is,how ,where and when do they get modified?

 

[Ttype6]

And visually check for shimming of presure relief spring as well.

Red installs a stronger pressure relief spring so there's no chance of loosing flow when you need it most. He's not the only one who does this. Again this doesn't do anything to increase output.

 

[Racetronix]

Red installs a stronger pressure relief spring so there's no chance of loosing flow when you need it most. He's not the only one who does this. Again this doesn't do anything to increase output.

He does not install anything. You simply press the small retainer further into its channel which puts more pressure on the spring. We adjust these on all GSS294M pumps so that they do not open below 100PSI.
Many Walbro pumps exceed their 255LPH spec. We have some pumps which flow 270LPH+ out of the box. The 255LPH rating is nominal. If the pressure bypass valve is adjusted then a standard GSS340 / GSS294 will flow much better upwards of 80PSI.

Up until around year 2K the Walbro GSS307 and GSS340 shared all the same parts. The only difference was that the GSS340 had a heavier spring in its pressure relief valve. This allowed the GSS340 to operate at higher pressures before the valve would open to dump fuel back in the tank. People soon realized that by shimming / modifying the spring on the GSS307 the same performance could be had at a lesser price. The pressure relief valve is an important safety feature which prevents dangerous pressures being built up in the fuel system should the pump's outlet become restricted. Many vendors and customers started modifying the valve which must have been one of the contributing factors to Walbro's design changes to these pumps. Racetronix has seen performance tests conducted on GSS307 pumps many years ago where a shimmed GSS307 would outperform a GSS340. This data would be accurate in its day when both pumps shared the same armature but this no longer holds true. The sad part is that certain vendors use this dated information to sell customers on modified GSS307s just for the sake of putting a few extra dollars in their pockets. Current production GSS307 and GSS340 pumps no longer have an opening in the cap allowing access to the valve's spring. The current GSS307 has an armature design which is different from all of the GSS34x pumps in Walbro's lineup. This encapsulated armature is better suited to the lower pressure applications (under 60PSI) for which the GSS307 was originally intended. When compared to a GSS340 the GSS307 will draw more current to produce the same pressure. Many would ask why offer the GSS307 if the GSS340 can provide better performance all around? Perhaps the original idea was the price point? At one time normal retail on a Walbro GSS307 pump was around $200US. Today it is not uncommon to see the same product being sold for around $100.00. The cost difference between the two pumps is only a few dollars. Racetronix has therefore decided to discontinue offering the GSS307. Where applicable current product will be bundled with GSS340 pumps only. We believe this is in the best interest of our customers.

 

[TurboTom72]

Red installs a stronger pressure relief spring so there's no chance of loosing flow when you need it most. He's not the only one who does this. Again this doesn't do anything to increase output.

Ok, so whether the spring is changed or shimmed, the outcome is essentially the same. The pump is modified from it's original manufactured condition, and the pressur relief valve will open more slowly due to the increased spring pressure. Whether that has any effect on output or not, idk as I have not conducted the variuos tests performed by others in the past. Although, as others have stated, common sense would dictate that the relief valve would open more slowly changing output levels up to the point where the valve would be fully opened vs. that of the output of an unmodded unit.

 

[TurboTom72]

I installed a Red Armstrong XP pump after I discovered I had one of the faulty pumps that Earl mentioned. That really pissed me off as I had changed a previous pump out as a precaution and replaced it with a new one that failed after only a couple hundred miles. The new Racetronix pumps are looking pretty good these days with many having greater output numbers than the Walboro pumps. My pump is basically a modified Walbro, but I would probably have looked to Racetronix had their newest line of pumps had been available at the time.

So, I would say that my initial statement, which started this discussion, still isn't too far off base. Visually, in my opinion, the xp and walbro looked identical. We have basically established and agreed that the pressure relief is modified in some way, so it is therefore a modified pump. Now what we need to verify is if the pumps in question are built to Red's spec, as stated by Ttype6. That is really the question here. I'll stick with my initial position of no they are not, until hard evidence shows otherwise. One off or limited production goods hold high price tags. Simple economics.

 

[Ttype6]

Ok, so whether the spring is changed or shimmed, the outcome is essentially the same. The pump is modified from it's original manufactured condition, and the pressur relief valve will open more slowly due to the increased spring pressure. Whether that has any effect on output or not, idk as I have not conducted the variuos tests performed by others in the past. Although, as others have stated, common sense would dictate that the relief valve would open more slowly changing output levels up to the point where the valve would be fully opened vs. that of the output of an unmodded unit.

If the relief valve doesn't open,the pressure will be what ever the pump's design will create. People make it harder to open for insurance. Yes, if it opens pressure will fall because a leak has been created. Again,this is done to insure pressure doesn't fall. It's not done to increase flow or pressure. It doesn't improve the output of the pump. If you can agree that the pump can't be modified after it is assembled and trust the testing that has been done,you must come to the conclusion that the pumps must be of a different design internally. When is the only time these changes could have been implemented? If these pumps haven't been shown to outflow other 255 lph pumps,why would Mike ask Walbro if they make pumps for Red? Would he want to know secrets about a pump that performs the same as the ones he sells? If Red's pumps have a history of being very reliable,even when the other 169 pumps where failing,they must be of a different design. Can you see the logic in these statements. If you can,you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that you have a pump that is much more special than you thought.

 

[Ttype6]

Visually, in my opinion, the xp and walbro looked identical.

As well as the Aeromotive and most of the pumps in most of the production cars in the world. What does that tell you?

 

[Racetronix]

If the relief valve doesn't open,the pressure will be what ever the pump's design will create. People make it harder to open for insurance. Yes, if it opens pressure will fall because a leak has been created. Again,this is done to insure pressure doesn't fall. It's not done to increase flow or pressure. It doesn't improve the output of the pump. If you can agree that the pump can't be modified after it is assembled and trust the testing that has been done,you must come to the conclusion that the pumps must be of a different design internally. When is the only time these changes could have been implemented? If these pumps haven't been shown to outflow other 255 lph pumps,why would Mike ask Walbro if they make pumps for Red? Would he want to know secrets about a pump that performs the same as the ones he sells? If Red's pumps have a history of being very reliable,even when the other 169 pumps where failing,they must be of a different design. Can you see the logic in these statements. If you can,you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that you have a pump that is much more special than you thought.

You are expecting people to take a leap of faith based flawed reasoning.

Pump output volume will increase at higher pressure if the bypass valve is adjusted b/c it will not be bleeding off in the tank.
Red (and Racetronix) never sold the F20000169, so the old problem with them was never part of this equation. All sold were based on 22mm inlet pumps such as the GSS340 and GSS294M.
If the bypass valve is adjusted for higher opening pressure then it is far less likely that debris would hang it up which helps eliminate a common type of failure.
If the pumps are pre-tested on a flow bench marginal pumps could be weeded out. Charging a premium would allow someone to absorb this loss and still maintain a profit. We do this as well without the premium.
We do not see any reason why TI /Walbro would benefit from lying about their relationship with a supplier with low-volume requirements.
Customer issues are much easier to contain when you do not have an internet presence. If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[Ttype6]

We do not see any reason why TI /Walbro would benefit from lying about their relationship with a supplier with low-volume requirements.

Do you think they would answer that question with a "Yes we do and here is what we do to it."
Why do his pumps flow more than all other 255lph pumps?