Radiator Research

[seedling]

OK, I may be opening up Pandora's Box here. However, I have to ask, as I'm trying to research / finalize my Cooling System Upgrades here. So, I’d like to see what the general-consensus is, if you all don't mind sharing your opinion?

1) Does anybody know what the original / factory radiator dimensions are? (I only ask because even the alleged “Drop-In” Factory Replacements seem to vary in size).

2) What is meant by “Cross Flow” Radiator? I mean, is this just a fancy marketing term, or are there differences in radiator design that would affect performance here?

3) Is an “Oil Cooler” required? <<And that’s when the fight started.>>
WHY -OR- WHY NOT?

4) Assuming an oil cooler is required, then how well equipped will all of the new “Aluminum Radiators” be at handling / or dissipating the heat? In other words, if brass is a far better dissipater of heat, then is it even wise to run an oil cooler through one of these new aluminum radiators? I would have to think yes, but, who knows?

I’m just trying to decide / justify the cost of say an AlRadco Unit, verses a GN1 Unit, or say the new Kirbans / GNS Performance Unit as well. And then there is always the F Body Radiator and more.

I guess my biggest fear is buying one of the new Aluminum Replacement Alternatives (and paying more for the built-in oil and trans cooler lines) that our cars came with from the factory. Only to discover that they are not as efficient, as originally intended. In that, my fear is that these new aluminum radiators just don’t have the heat shedding capacity, that the original brass units did before. Thereby, yielding this provision somewhat useless to begin with. Truth be told, I’m a little fearful of even using a built-in cooler (of any kind) on one of these new radiators. Because from what I can see, aluminum is roughly half as efficient at dissipating heat than brass is. So, what effect does this have on a “Built-In Cooler”, if any??

 

[~JM~]

I believe that the offerings by ALRADCO & the re-cored units by Arizona GN, are probably the highest quality units you can buy.

Might as well do the dual fans & auxiliary tranny cooler also.

I've heard that the original engineer's intention for the radiator mounted "engine oil cooler" was actually intended to warm the oil quicker after cold start. Don't know for sure on that one. I was surprised at how small the engine oil heat exchanger was inside the radiator tank.

Buying the best may hurt the wallet a bit, but rarely will you be disappointed with the results.

 

[earlbrown]

I’m just trying to decide / justify the cost of say an AlRadco Unit, verses a GN1 Unit, or say the new Kirbans / GNS Performance Unit as well. And then there is always the F Body Radiator and more.

If you're basing the choice on cost, then the F body wins hands down. It works and it's the least expensive. Not to mention the nationwide lifetime warranty.


As far as the oil coolers go.... it depends on what oil you run and how hot it gets. Full synthetic typically handles heat better than dino. Along with other factors like, climate, usage, bling factor, blah blah blah


For example, I live in GA. My current cooling system is a F body radiator from AAV, a heater core from Vatozone, a thermostat with a steam hole in it, and a remote trans cooler. When I floor my car in the summer, the temp usually drops 1 to 2 degrees for a little bit.

 

[seedling]

I believe that the offerings by ALRADCO & the re-cored units by Arizona GN, are probably the highest quality units you can buy.

Might as well do the dual fans & auxiliary tranny cooler also.

I've heard that the original engineer's intention for the radiator mounted "engine oil cooler" was actually intended to warm the oil quicker after cold start. Don't know for sure on that one. I was surprised at how small the engine oil heat exchanger was inside the radiator tank.

Buying the best may hurt the wallet a bit, but rarely will you be disappointed with the results.

Yeah, I’ve been weighing em all out and I know the AlRadco is top shelf. However, it’s difficult to justify that huge difference in price, as the whole chabang with AlRadco is nearly $400 more than the whole chabang from GN1.




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[seedling]

If you're basing the choice on cost, then the F body wins hands down. It works and it's the least expensive. Not to mention the nationwide lifetime warranty.


As far as the oil coolers go.... it depends on what oil you run and how hot it gets. Full synthetic typically handles heat better than dino. Along with other factors like, climate, usage, bling factor, blah blah blah


For example, I live in GA. My current cooling system is a F body radiator from AAV, a heater core from Vatozone, a thermostat with a steam hole in it, and a remote trans cooler. When I floor my car in the summer, the temp usually drops 1 to 2 degrees for a little bit.

Lol! Man, you always crack me up!

Funny thing is I used the Earl Brown pricing method and ran down the F Body radiator (with special EB discount codes and free shipping). And I even added a dorman dual fan set up from Rock auto and a Casper’s harness and I can do the whole set up for less than the difference between the $1,170 (plus $100 for shipping) of the AlRadco and the the $799 GN1 deal? In that, using your method I could have the whole shooting match at my door for roughly $280 - $290 tops (which is actually less than the difference between the two top contenders alone)!! So, yessir you do have a point (not too mention lifetime warranty).

Oh and that $280$290 price includes a bad arsed Hayde Trans Fluid Cooler with its own fan as well. So, yeah there is a difference in price.

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[captndave737]

OK, I may be opening up Pandora's Box here. However, I have to ask, as I'm trying to research / finalize my Cooling System Upgrades here. So, I’d like to see what the general-consensus is, if you all don't mind sharing your opinion?

1) Does anybody know what the original / factory radiator dimensions are? (I only ask because even the alleged “Drop-In” Factory Replacements seem to vary in size).

2) What is meant by “Cross Flow” Radiator? I mean, is this just a fancy marketing term, or are there differences in radiator design that would affect performance here?

3) Is an “Oil Cooler” required? <<And that’s when the fight started.>>
WHY -OR- WHY NOT?

4) Assuming an oil cooler is required, then how well equipped will all of the new “Aluminum Radiators” be at handling / or dissipating the heat? In other words, if brass is a far better dissipater of heat, then is it even wise to run an oil cooler through one of these new aluminum radiators? I would have to think yes, but, who knows?

I’m just trying to decide / justify the cost of say an AlRadco Unit, verses a GN1 Unit, or say the new Kirbans / GNS Performance Unit as well. And then there is always the F Body Radiator and more.

I guess my biggest fear is buying one of the new Aluminum Replacement Alternatives (and paying more for the built-in oil and trans cooler lines) that our cars came with from the factory. Only to discover that they are not as efficient, as originally intended. In that, my fear is that these new aluminum radiators just don’t have the heat shedding capacity, that the original brass units did before. Thereby, yielding this provision somewhat useless to begin with. Truth be told, I’m a little fearful of even using a built-in cooler (of any kind) on one of these new radiators. Because from what I can see, aluminum is roughly half as efficient at dissipating heat than brass is. So, what effect does this have on a “Built-In Cooler”, if any??

Well Aluminum conducts heat almost twice as well as Brass and Copper is almost twice as good as Aluminum. I don't think you can find a copper radiator and copper is weak.

Common metals ranked by thermal conductivity
Rank Metal Thermal Conductivity [BTU/(hr·ft⋅°F)]
1 Copper 223
2 Aluminum 118
3 Brass 64
4 Steel 17
5 Bronze 15

I replaced my perfectly good original radiator with a 4 row Brass radiator because I couldn't get the car to run below 210 in traffic with a 160 Tstat. The new radiator made no difference. Replaced it with an aluminum radiator and had to go to a 180 Tstat because the car ran too cool. Stays right at 180 no matter what now.

 

[seedling]

Well Aluminum conducts heat almost twice as well as Brass and Copper is almost twice as good as Aluminum. I don't think you can find a copper radiator and copper is weak.

Common metals ranked by thermal conductivity
Rank Metal Thermal Conductivity [BTU/(hr·ft⋅°F)]
1 Copper 223
2 Aluminum 118
3 Brass 64
4 Steel 17
5 Bronze 15

I replaced my perfectly good original radiator with a 4 row Brass radiator because I couldn't get the car to run below 210 in traffic with a 160 Tstat. The new radiator made no difference. Replaced it with an aluminum radiator and had to go to a 180 Tstat because the car ran too cool. Stays right at 180 no matter what now.

Thank you sir! That’s the kind of information that I was looking for. As I knew there was a vast difference. Just didn’t know the numbers.

So, if you don’t mind me asking, what aluminum radiator did you go with?

Thanks.


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[earlbrown]

Keep in mind, thermal conductivity is only one part of the equation. You have to conduct heat from the coolant to the flue. Then conduct through a solder bond from the flue to the fins, then CONVECT to the air (which only weighs 8/1000lb per cubic foot).

Here's some deep stuff... There's only three ways to transfer heat energy: Conduction, Convection, and Radiation.

A 'radiator' uses conduction and convection to cool an engine, but not radiation.


Now a hot radiator will radiate heat energy. That rejection of heat warms up the engine compartment, the engine, a SLIC intercooler, the A/C condenser, and the incoming cooling air, and sometimes the intake air.

So basically the radiator uses the other two to cool, and the actual radiation is just a PIA for the conduction and convection trying to do all the work.

 

[TurboTGuy]

I have no specialized experience here, but I do live in Phoenix and it gets HOT here.

I have a GN1 Aluminum Radiator with the oil cooler provision (bypassed to a separate oil cooler mounted in the stock intercooler air pick up area because I run a front mount IC, also something to consider when upgrading cooling) and dual Spal fans, boxed and sealed with aluminum tape. I run a 160 degree thermostat all year long.

8 months of the year I see a steady 180 degrees in heavy, stop and go traffic running a mix of coolant and RMI25. 165/170 on the freeway and all around in the cooler months.

In the hot months the ambient temps are 100+, often 110 and sometimes near 120. I don't drive her often in those months, but I do drive her occasionally when it's hot.

In stop and go traffic, in 100+ degree temps she runs 200 with the A/C on. If it's hotter and I decide to drive the car, I suffer with no A/C and see 205/208 regularly in traffic, 200 on the freeway.

This is real world experience, take it for what it's worth.

Good luck in your endeavor.

 

[earlbrown]

Have you boxed in your radiator opening and put strips of foam vertically on the end tank? That will make a big difference with controlling airflow.

 

[TurboTGuy]

Have you boxed in your radiator opening and put strips of foam vertically on the end tank? That will make a big difference with controlling airflow.

No sir, only the fan box, each side is still open outside of the fan box, but you make a hell of a point with that foam idea, especially running a front mount.

 

[earlbrown]

Night and day with the boxing. Keep in mind, every cubic foot of air that goes around the radiator pressurized the engine compartment and make it harder for air to go through the radiator.

Not to mention it's MUCH easier to air to go through that huge gap, than all the fins.


I boxed mine in years ago so basically my entire grill area was a ''ram air'' for the cooling system. And I ran my air intake duct to that same cavity in front of the A/C condenser instead of using that goofy little air dam inlet.

 

[TurboTGuy]

Night and day with the boxing. Keep in mind, every cubic foot of air that goes around the radiator pressurized the engine compartment and make it harder for air to go through the radiator.

Not to mention it's MUCH easier to air to go through that huge gap, than all the fins.


I boxed mine in years ago so basically my entire grill area was a ''ram air'' for the cooling system. And I ran my air intake duct to that same cavity in front of the A/C condenser instead of using that goofy little air dam inlet.

Great info! Thank you sir.

I have a CAI with a K&N cone filter that picks up air right behind the left corner of the front bumper. MAF translator, sewer pipe inlet, all that fun stuff.

Like many here, mine isn't running right now, I hurt the engine. But a new one is in the works, hopefully complete in late Fall and a "loaner" (thank you Nick Micale) is going in over the next few weeks.

 

[seedling]

I have no specialized experience here, but I do live in Phoenix and it gets HOT here.

I have a GN1 Aluminum Radiator with the oil cooler provision (bypassed to a separate oil cooler mounted in the stock intercooler air pick up area because I run a front mount IC, also something to consider when upgrading cooling) and dual Spal fans, boxed and sealed with aluminum tape. I run a 160 degree thermostat all year long.

8 months of the year I see a steady 180 degrees in heavy, stop and go traffic running a mix of coolant and RMI25. 165/170 on the freeway and all around in the cooler months.

In the hot months the ambient temps are 100+, often 110 and sometimes near 120. I don't drive her often in those months, but I do drive her occasionally when it's hot.

In stop and go traffic, in 100+ degree temps she runs 200 with the A/C on. If it's hotter and I decide to drive the car, I suffer with no A/C and see 205/208 regularly in traffic, 200 on the freeway.

This is real world experience, take it for what it's worth.

Good luck in your endeavor.

I do like the GN1 set up and it’s nearly $400 cheaper than the AlRadco set up. Lived in Tempe for a year and a half in mid nineties and loved it (would still be there if it weren’t for the wife). So, I know what you mean! Can’t imagine owning a GN there (I’m sure that’s one of the reasons why your car is white)!

Thanks for the info that helps too.


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[seedling]

Have you boxed in your radiator opening and put strips of foam vertically on the end tank? That will make a big difference with controlling airflow.

No sir, have yet to touch the cooling system (except to by pass heater core and install a new water pump). But, my thirty years old radiator is clogging up now. So, I have to make a move here.

My trans just started flaring too. So, I have a double whammy coming here.


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[turbo nasty]

Everybody keeps saying F body.......Get the 87 Buick Regal with 307 same core as f body and the pass side tank for lower radiator fits better than f body. Pull both and compare for yourselves

 

[earlbrown]

I've seen a few posts that say the F body lower house coupling is problematic.

When I installed mine, all I did was hook the hose up with no issues. I can't think of how it could have been done better.



Is the 307 radiator as thin as the Fbody? I'm guessing it's built more like the stocker so you'd lose the weight savings.


Plus, AFAIK, the Fbody unit is still an instock item at the parts store. I kinda doubt the 307 is in stock at most stores.

 

[Steve V]

Everybody keeps saying F body.......Get the 87 Buick Regal with 307 same core as f body and the pass side tank for lower radiator fits better than f body. Pull both and compare for yourselves

I just ordered one of each, Fbody was not in stock 307 was. Shipping is free and I am lazy so I chose ship to home option. I will post pics when I get them.

 

[Steve V]

As promised here ya go.....the 307 V8 radiator has a thinner core than the F body. The petcock is on the left side, lower hose is on the bottom. 307 probably ok for SLIC car, not for a front mount.

 

[turbo nasty]

FWIW the 307 radiator worked fine for me with dual fans and a ESP FMIC