Questions for the high HP guys

Eric Stauch

Nasty87
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Hey guys I am looking for some advice on what may work best with my combination for my goal. '87 GN with the goal of 650-700hp, long block is built and back in the car. It has all the supporting mods, I wont get into those details unless needed.
So my questions are fuel system and ignition. I'm running the plug and play MS3pro ecu and going to run E85. I know I will be running all new fuel lines but what pump set up are you guys running? In-tank? external? I have to drop my tank and remove the old pump so it would be no problem to sump it while I'm there and run external if that would be best. I really like the Innovative single 525 with the upgraded hanger assembly that GN1 has but I don't know if that would be enough or if it is even good for E85. Next is the ignition. On my last set up I ran the type II coils and modules. But now I see there is a TR6 set up but I don't really know much about it. What are you guys with these kind of power levels running? Thanks.
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
I thought you said high HP lol!

J/K that will make a nice combo with the motor you have in your signature I am running a similar set up in my Ttype with the MS3pro/ECU-GN on E85 and a flex fuel sensor. It is mostly a street car and I am still working the details out on it but have been becoming a really big fan of MS3pro and Tunerstudio. I have 160# SMP injectors with a Racetronix 750l double pumper intank set up with the Racetronix fuel inj harness. I also ran his complete Teflon fuel line kit which is nice but a little confusing install correctly since he really doesn't provide you with instructions. Go big on the fuel set up for E85 and 700hp at the rear tire which that 6766 should give you. I would not go smaller than 120# inj with as much fuel as you can get out of an intank setup. Intank is a cleaner and quieter setup but going external the sky is the limit.

I am still running the stock C3I for now but will be switching to the Truck coils which is what the TR6 runs. The MS3pro is also an ignition module and can run the truck coils directly eliminating the troublesome factory ign module and not requiring a TR6 moduel. This allows the use of all the MS3pro ignition features like 2-step, retard functions, overboost protection etc. Turbotweak makes a harness and Bison has a mounting bracket that goes in the factory location. You will need plug wires too as the truck coils have a different style boot.

Good luck with the build hope this helps.
 

~JM~

Wrinkled Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
...with a Racetronix 750l double pumper intank set up with the Racetronix fuel inj harness. I also ran his complete Teflon fuel line kit which is nice but a little confusing install correctly since he really doesn't provide you with instructions....

That is a problem! I like the quality of Racetronix offerings, but the lack of support is not acceptable.
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
That is a problem! I like the quality of Racetronix offerings, but the lack of support is not acceptable.
I try to buy from a vendor and not Racetronix directly. I used Mike at Full Throttle and he was helpful. Racetronix also has a forum with a lot of info on it and for some reason he is more inclinded to answer questions there than directly.
 

Eric Stauch

Nasty87
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
I thought you said high HP lol!
Ha! Fair point, not really big numbers by todays standards. You mentioned a flex sensor and yes that is defiantly something I want to run. Do you run it just for the variation in ethanol content or so you can run pump gas if needed? What size feed line are you running? I have debated the double pump set up but Im kind of hesitant having never ran one. With a big external most of the time if there is a problem with it the car wont even start, on a double pump set up you dont know if that other pump is going to kick on if something is faulty until its too late right? I didnt know that about the MS3 having a ignition module feature. When you say truck coils I assume your talking LS style? Is any certain type or year model better? I will defiantly look into that harness and bracket you mentioned. Thank you for the advice!
 

Mr.Spool

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
. I know I will be running all new fuel lines but what pump set up are you guys running? In-tank? external?
I'm running -10,ptfe lines,aeromotive brushless spur external e85 on my nt car.done once and for all.you should do less pump and line for that power level your aiming for and you would be really good fuel wise and reliability wise.my friend is running stock rail with ptfe lines on the smaller side think 8 and 6 and external aeromotive pump and it's been good in your power level and further.
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
Ha! Fair point, not really big numbers by todays standards. You mentioned a flex sensor and yes that is defiantly something I want to run. Do you run it just for the variation in ethanol content or so you can run pump gas if needed? What size feed line are you running? I have debated the double pump set up but Im kind of hesitant having never ran one. With a big external most of the time if there is a problem with it the car wont even start, on a double pump set up you dont know if that other pump is going to kick on if something is faulty until its too late right? I didnt know that about the MS3 having a ignition module feature. When you say truck coils I assume your talking LS style? Is any certain type or year model better? I will defiantly look into that harness and bracket you mentioned. Thank you for the advice!
Yes the cars are flying today hell how many new production cars are making that kind of power or more!

Yes I agree with Mr. Spool and I too went deep in the 8s on a stock C3I and even faster on a dizzy and MSD box but thats not to say there's not a better way. I am just figuring out what all the MS3pro does and only found out about the ignition module from Steve Kessler in BG and info is hard to come by in the Buick world unless you run a Holley or XFI. The factory C3i puts out plenty of spark energy the problems with it lie more with the fact that it is a self contained ign so to add ign controls or a two-step it becomes difficult if not impossible. I have not set up the truck coil pack yet but will be doing so this summer. I just got my old TSO car back this year and will be updating it over the winter and TBH I think I am going to keep the MSD 7A and dizzy even though I am probably putting a Holley Dominator on it. Yes it is truck coils ans not the individual ones. The coil pack comes from Vortex V6 on the Silverado. Here is a pic of it is the same thing used on the TR6 except you can just plug it right into the MS3pro with the Harness that Eric makes.


At the power level of a 67mm turbo I wouldnt even consider an external the DP is well proven and has been very very fast not just in Buicks but many other makes and model cars at this point. I control turning the second pump on with the MS3pro and did away with the pressure switch. TBH on gas some of the newer single in tanks pumps would probably be enough to feed 600-700hp. I am running -8 up and -6 back which is plenty. I am converting another car soon that has the same turbo and plan to run the stock lines. The biggest restriction in the stock lines is actually the saginaw ends they use to connect to the engine fuel lines at the frame.
 

Reggie West

Well-Known Member
TurboBuick.Com Supporter!
Joined
May 28, 2001
You can run a DW 400 on a billet hanger and it all fits in the tank. My goal on my car is 700hp on E85 also. I ran a -8 feed and a -6 return and it worked really well. Keep your stock fuel rail, you can use adapter fittings on the rail ends and it will work just fine. Also, they make a banjo fitting to attach to the bottom of the stock fuel pressure regulator that will clear the tight space between it and the intake manifold. It is an easy path along the manifold and valve cover right to the back of the motor.

The MS3 has some nice features on it to help you out. You can run a flex fuel sensor on it so the ECM can make the adjustments on fuel quality (ethanol content) on the fly. Using the flex fuel sensor you can run fuel map switching, which means you can run 91 octane in a pinch and the ECM will allow for that as well. You can even run race gas if you want. I have a guy that will make the harness connections for the flex sensor, coil plug and whatever else you need. Also wide band if you don't have it already,

The MS3 will run a waste spark coil pack or the coil on plug set up directly. You wont need the ignition box on the car, the MS3 does it internally. The problem with the stock coil packs is that you cant find them anymore and the knockoffs simply don't work well. The GM V6 truck modules are more powerful and plentiful and cost $80 on Amazon.

Let me know if you need any help with it. I can get you lines, fittings, fuel pump all of it.
 
Last edited:

Eric Stauch

Nasty87
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
I'm running -10,ptfe lines,aeromotive brushless spur external e85 on my nt car.done once and for all.you should do less pump and line for that power level your aiming for and you would be really good fuel wise and reliability wise.my friend is running stock rail with ptfe lines on the smaller side think 8 and 6 and external aeromotive pump and it's been good in your power level and further.
Would there be any down side to going ahead and running a -10 feed? I know it is not necessary for my power goal but if I am running new lines anyway might as well leave room to grow.
 

Eric Stauch

Nasty87
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
At the power level of a 67mm turbo I wouldnt even consider an external the DP is well proven and has been very very fast not just in Buicks but many other makes and model cars at this point. I control turning the second pump on with the MS3pro and did away with the pressure switch. TBH on gas some of the newer single in tanks pumps would probably be enough to feed 600-700hp. I am running -8 up and -6 back which is plenty. I am converting another car soon that has the same turbo and plan to run the stock lines. The biggest restriction in the stock lines is actually the saginaw ends they use to connect to the engine fuel lines at the frame.
Is there a big reason I shouldnt go with an external? Other than more noise than internal. Its getting all new lines front to back so no factory fittings.
 

Eric Stauch

Nasty87
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Keep your stock fuel rail



The MS3 will run a waste spark coil pack or the coil on plug set up directly. You wont need the ignition box on the car, the MS3 does it internally. The problem with the stock coil packs is that you cant find them anymore and the knockoffs simply don't work well. The GM V6 truck modules are more powerful and plentiful and cost $80 on Amazon.

Let me know if you need any help with it. I can get you lines, fittings, fuel pump all of it.
I already have a champion race intake with their rails and aeromotive remote mount regulator.
If everyone is having good luck with the silervado coil pack and there are brackets for it then I may go that route. Sounds like it would be a clean install. Ill send you a PM and get some more info on the fuel pump set up. Thanks!
 

turbobuick

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
Is there a big reason I shouldnt go with an external? Other than more noise than internal. Its getting all new lines front to back so no factory fittings.
Have you ever rode around in a car with a big Weldon lol! Heat is another issue with big externals but I believe some of the new brushless pumps from Aeromotivelike Mr Spool mentioned are supposed to work really well even with extended running. No reason to not run -10 either especially if you already have Champion ralis.

For you guys running -10 feed and -8 returns how are you installing a Flex fuel sensor in the return line? I am planning to convert my GN this winter when I redo the car and I have a -10 feed -8 return with a Weldon 2035. I am probably going to hook up a small external pump in parallel to run on the street, I think I have a Bosch 286 pump still laying around. Not sure how to plumb the flex fuel sensor in though it will be a restriction in a -8 with the Weldon pump running. Can I push fuel through the flex fuel sensor and mount it in front of the bocsh street pump?
 

Pronto

You can't knock them up with spit.
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
From what I've seen on some E85 cars both LS and TB they've run a smaller diameter loop off the return line to the sensor and back into the return line so it is not a restriction. I do not run E85 so I'm just relating what I've seen.
 

Reggie West

Well-Known Member
TurboBuick.Com Supporter!
Joined
May 28, 2001
Is there a big reason I shouldnt go with an external? Other than more noise than internal. Its getting all new lines front to back so no factory fittings.
Its a pain in the ass and noisy but to each their own. A DW400 will support 700hp to the wheels and it fits in the tank with no problems.
 

Mr.Spool

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
I'm running a brushless spur aeromotive,its really not that loud and I am very fussy with my street car.the trunk can also be dyno matted for further reduction if some are more fussy then the i am bbn lol.i have mine on the tps and it ramps voltage off the throttle and curves well,no overheating from what I have seen.they aren't cheap but alot of cars around me have externals so i figured since im doing it.........let's see lol
 

Mr.Spool

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
I've also been through alot of internal pumps that do provide good fuel 400+lph. but my friends externals have outlasted them.i have had to replace many more internal pumps although they are much cheaper.
 

Chuck Leeper

Toxic old bastard
Staff member
Joined
May 28, 2001
From what I've seen on some E85 cars both LS and TB they've run a smaller diameter loop off the return line to the sensor and back into the return line so it is not a restriction. I do not run E85 so I'm just relating what I've seen.
Like this?
Flex fuel sensor.jpg
 
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