Question about installing heads with ARP bolts

D

d0n_3d

Boost is good.
Joined
Jul 14, 2001
This may seem like a stupid question...but I just received my ARP headbolts from John's Performance...I am putting my factory stock unported heads back on with the Felpro 9441PT gaskets...I have sanded down the block and heads and have wiped them down with laquer thinner...now the head bolts got me confused...there's 3 different lengths to them...there's long, medium and just a bit smaller than medium sized...i have 8 of the smallest bolts, 4 of the medium and 4 of the long

i forgot where each bolt goes...like where do the long ones go...etc...also where do you buy the ARP thread sealer??? i was expecting to get it with the package of bolts but to no avail...I do NOT want to screw this up!:)
 
Which ARP Bolt Goes Where?

I just went through this drill...

The shortest bolts go at the bottom portion of the head near the exhaust ports (4 per side.)

The medium length bolts go in the rocker arm area, 2 per side. Put them in the front and the rear holes.

The longest bolts go in the rocker arm area, 2 per side. Install in the 2 middle holes.

Don't forget the special washers, lightly oiled. Make sure the bevel is toward the bolt.

I won't recommend a torque. 82 ft-lbs works for me, but do a search, there are lots of opinions on this one.

The local speed shop should have the thread sealer.

HTH

Peter

PS - Thanks for the response to my Poston header question from last week!
 
works for me...thanks!

now i am having a hard time with the rear main seal replacement...check my other thread for that one:rolleyes: :mad:
 
one more question...the instructions say that you should use ARP thread sealant...do I HAVE to use it? nobody around here has that stuff...it didn't come with my bolts...what can I substitute for the thread sealer? also when they say use oil on the bolt heads and washers, what kind of oil? 10w30???
 
well here's what I did today...

I bought some Permatex high temp -white- thread sealer (the little tube)...this was after doing vigorous research of many others using this stuff on their headbolt threads...

so i applied the thread sealer on ALL threads of the head bolts very well and even on the VERY end of the headbolt...installed washers with the bevel facing the head of the bolt...applied a dab of 10w30 oil under the head and washers...

i used an air compressor to blow out all the crap in the holes,
i chased each bolt hole with a long head bolt to clean out all the crap that was in the threads as best as i could...there's barely (if any) coolant in the block which still sits in the engine compartment...but oil is drained, in fact i have the oil pan off right now doing a rear main seal...so whatever drops into the motor it really will fall to the floor (including whatever gets in the cylinder walls)

i also wiped down the block and head surfaces with paint thinner, also did the cylinder walls and the tops of the pistons...installed headgaskets bone dry (felpro 9441PT gaskets btw)

now on to the bolt installation

torqued the first sequence just by hand and made each bolt "snug" with a regular socket wrench...then i proceeded to get the torque wrench out and torque all bolts in sequence first to 30 ft lbs...waited 10 minutes...second time around it was 50 ft lbs...waited another 10 minutes...third time went 70 foot lbs...waited 10 minutes...LAST round went 85 foot lbs exactly on each bolt and haven't touched them since

did i do everything correctly??? i sure hope so! now when i get all this stuff back on and get ready to fire up the motor...should i just fill my radiator with pure water to flush out the block of all the crap that fell in the holes??? then after i drain the water go with a 50/50? i also planned on driving the car down the highway for a little bit with fresh oil and let the oil flush out the motor of all contaminants...and then drain the oil and change it right away...is this a good idea??? anything else i should know about when starting this thing like valve adjustment and TDC??? sorry this is so long just need help, first time taking apart motor and i don't want to screw this up...

this motor will not be even ready to fire for another month so the heads will have plenty of time to seat and cure properly...
 
You might want to ask the question about loosening them up and doing them 2 more times. I heard some guys talking about doing the bolts 3 times at the Buick Nats. last year. I'm no engine builder but I know I have read that before here in the tech section before. E mail Nick or AZGN they could tell you.
Tarey D.
 
GNergy is 100% correct by backing them up 1/4 turn then retorque to ARP's recommendation. This is done to remove any surface imperfections off the washer, head and the bottom of the bolt head. By the way do you have Pro-performance ARP 12 pt 190,000 psi bolts or studs? ARP recommends 90 ft pounds with those bolts with 30w oil. Be sure to follow ARP recommendation on those bolts.. Good luck...
 
so how long do i have to wait until i need to re-torque those bolts??? i haven't touched them yet...like i said the car won't even be started until the end of this month...do i do it now or after i heat cycle the motor a few times????

i got the ARP 170,000 psi bolts with washers...6 pt...used Permatex #2 high temp white teflon thread sealer...it says on the package that this stuff can be movable after setting...which means i should be ok re-torquing...
 
You do it now before you start it up 3 times then you don't have to do it later.
Tarey D.
 
Actually, I'd remove the bolts and mark which hole each came out of. For three reasons, first the holes weren't properly tap-cleaned, second the sealer shouldn't have been applied to all the threads, and third the threads have already began to mate. Remove the heads. This time tap-clean the holes pushing down on the tap going in and pulling up coming out, cleaning (brushing) the tap, and repeating until the holes are shiny clean. Reclean the bottom of the head, if even a finger touched them, with brake cleaner sprayed on a clean rag. Apply the sealer to only the bottom 2 or three threads and oil to the rest (same for the washers and bottom of bolt heads). Torque in sequence to the 85#. Let sit OVERNIGHT to compress the gasket. The next day, one-by-one, loosen 30 degrees and retorque to 85, i.e., DON'T loosen all at once and retorque all at once. Now you can refill with coolant. Drive it easy for a few hundred miles to allow the gasket to bond. Do it once and do it right. Good Luck, Joel
 
I sure hope you cleaned all the trash from the area between the piston top and the first ring groove. You would need to clean it by blowng it out and rotating the engine a litlte to uncover the hiden trash. If you did not get all the trash from the sanding your cylinder walls are not going to be happy.
 
Originally posted by TurboGN
Actually, I'd remove the bolts and mark which hole each came out of. For three reasons, first the holes weren't properly tap-cleaned, second the sealer shouldn't have been applied to all the threads, and third the threads have already began to mate. Remove the heads. This time tap-clean the holes pushing down on the tap going in and pulling up coming out, cleaning (brushing) the tap, and repeating until the holes are shiny clean. Reclean the bottom of the head, if even a finger touched them, with brake cleaner sprayed on a clean rag. Apply the sealer to only the bottom 2 or three threads and oil to the rest (same for the washers and bottom of bolt heads). Torque in sequence to the 85#. Let sit OVERNIGHT to compress the gasket. The next day, one-by-one, loosen 30 degrees and retorque to 85, i.e., DON'T loosen all at once and retorque all at once. Now you can refill with coolant. Drive it easy for a few hundred miles to allow the gasket to bond. Do it once and do it right. Good Luck, Joel
Click to expand...

Most of what you said I agree with but what is so wrong about having thread sealer on most of the threads? Is it because it may adversly affect the torque readings? I do not see any other reason for this, I would much rather have too much than not enough thread sealer seeing that you do not know how far in the block the bolts may go(the bottom couple of threads may go right into the water jacket leaving no sealer in the threads in the block.:confused:
 
Originally posted by musclecar neal
I sure hope you cleaned all the trash from the area between the piston top and the first ring groove. You would need to clean it by blowng it out and rotating the engine a litlte to uncover the hiden trash. If you did not get all the trash from the sanding your cylinder walls are not going to be happy.
Click to expand...

i did this...used an air compressor to blow out all the crap and then rotated the engine over many times...like i said the oil pan is completely off right now so whatever falls out of those walls goes to the floor...

as for the bolt holes...first i connected an air compressor to the holes and blew everything out...then i ran a long bolt through all the threads (same as using a tap i would think) to get anything that didn't come clean...then i hooked up the air compressor once more and blew out the holes...should be clean in there, i am not removing the head again because i have already torqued it down, then i would have to throw away a perfectly new gasket...

what's wrong with putting sealer on ALL the threads? according to everything i searched and read everyone does this...i think i did everything correctly...it's not like i am running at the dragstrip every single day with this car pushing it to the max...it's a 99% street car that will see occasional 23-25 psi blasts on a bone stock motor
 
don_3d,
You are fine putting thread sealer on all the threads, no harm done. However using a bottom tap to clean the holes out is important before you do so. Using an old head bolt to clean out the threads is not a good way to do it. If you run a bottom tap down and up the blind hole you will see what I mean. I am not saying you MUST do this but it is just good practice. HTH..

Mike Banas
87GN
 
well this bolt that i used is not an old head bolt...rather it's threaded all the way and i guess i was "tapping" and didn't know it...needless to say the threads were mostly clean anyways...i just finished installing the driver side head...all the bolts went in smoothly with no problems...tightened then again the same way i did before, just snug with a socket wrench, 30 lbs, 50 lbs, 70 lbs, and finally 85 lbs exactly...

now the passenger side head has been sitting for 24 hours now and i haven't touched the bolts...should i back them up and do them all at 85 again? how many times should i do this and what is the waiting period inbetween them? man i tell you what, 85 lbs of torque is ALOT of torque! there's no way those heads have a chance of lifting...
 
Don't back them off after 24 hours. You will destroy the seal you made with the thread sealant. When you torque the head initially that is when you should do the 3 cycles.
 
Originally posted by musclecar neal
Don't back them off after 24 hours. You will destroy the seal you made with the thread sealant. When you torque the head initially that is when you should do the 3 cycles.
Click to expand...
If coolant hasn't been added and nothing heat cycled the seal won't be affected. I believe waiting overnight allows the gasket to compress a leetlweetl more. Maybe I'm superstitious. The three cycles, however, are mandatory - see we agree on something.
 
NEVER I repeat NEVER loosen the bolts after that long of a time period. it will ruin the seal made by the thread sealant. You may have had luck with it but you did compromise the seal. The gasket does not compress " more" over time. It compresses when the heads are tightened the first time and that is as far as it goes. Talk to a gasket engineer and he will tell you the same thing I said. I have talked to many in my 20+ years of professional engine building. Also talk to a sealant engineer he will tell you that they set up in about 3 hours at normal room temps. Once the seal has been broken the flowing action of the sealant is lost and will never be the same. Also talk to a fastener engineer about why you torque the bolts and loosed them 3 times on the frirst install. The bolts need to be stretched 2 times so on the third pass you get the correct amount of bolt stretch to clamp the head down correctly. The torque spec is used because they know from testing that the amount of torque used stretches the bolts to 75% of yield strenght ( the best clamping force). Just my .02 from many years of keeping heads on cars.
 
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