Precision front mount intercooler vs precision slic

A stock core simply doesnt have the mass to absorb the heat. Reds slic was a huge step up from his old designs using stock cores. I find it funny how I provided 100% real track backed proof, and people are still arguing that the available front mounts are better.
Here is what I saw, giant front mount, 8.92@151 was the best pass with a gen 2 3 bolt turbo, this is where i was stuck for years.
Reds slic, 8.76@154 on the same exact tune, 8.64@157 with more timing with a lesser turbo, gen1 billet turbo 8.48@159 with some more timing and the newer, gen2 3 bolt turbo.
 

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A stock core simply doesnt have the mass to absorb the heat. Reds slic was a huge step up from his old designs using stock cores. I find it funny how I provided 100% real track backed proof, and people are still arguing that the available front mounts are better.
Here is what I saw, giant front mount, 8.92@151 was the best pass with a gen 2 3 bolt turbo, this is where i was stuck for years.
Reds slic, 8.76@154 on the same exact tune, 8.64@157 with more timing with a lesser turbo, gen1 billet turbo 8.48@159 with some more timing and the newer, gen2 3 bolt turbo.

Hey Rob,
That's amazing and I obviously believe you, but would be one of the people who would argue for the FMIC lol!
A lot probably has to do with other pieces of the puzzle too, cam profile, turbine and compressor wheels, fuel etc.

Can you share what you saw different with the SLIC vs the FMIC, Trap IATs drop, less pressure drop lower starting line IATs? What do you think was most significant in helping with the gains? Was it simply the increased timing in the motor and what was it that allowed the increase in timing? Cooler temps, better fuel? Just curious as your results are pretty amazing. Up to this point I have always felt the CAS V1 was probably the best FMIC produced and have tested it extensively.

If you still have the CAS V1 I would like to see it, he used at least 3 different cores on that set up and I would be curious to see if I can tell which one it is. As you know I did do a LOT of testing on that stuff both on my TSO car and back in the 90's in Chicago with Tony when he was designing the V1 and the CAS V4.

From what I remember on the SLIC no matter what we did to it we always ended up with the same IAT's at the end of the track and we never were able to get the IAT's anywhere near what we could on a front mount. I remember talking to Red about it and he definitely had the SLIC combo down to a science. I know we struggled to get anywhere near 150-160 degree temps in the traps with a SLIC

Starting line temp was also lower with the front mount than the SLIC at least with what we were doing at the time. We were always able to get the FMIC at a lower starting line IAT than a SLIC which as you know is a big deal. IAT's on both the std CAS V4 and the larger one he made would sky rocket after the 1/8 mile mark on my car. This was back in the TSS days with a stock appearing TA-66 q-trim turbo.

The CAS V1 on my TSO car was never more than 30 degree temp rise an entire pass even on relatively hot days. We typically had starting line temps in the 100 degree range and would see mid/high 120's on a decent weather day running over 170mph at about 35-38 psi on a PTE billet wheel 4788 T4 flange and 3" IC piping with 70mm TB lol! I can't remember what we measured the pressure drop as but it wasn't much maybe 2-3 psi. I know we checked it once and it wasn't an issue. I know the CAS also had more pressure drop than the PTE and Cottons at the time but it also had the lowest IAT's at least on a car with a 88mm turbo.

A CAS V3 on a TSO car will actually drop the IATs mid track from starting line until they start to rise by the end of a run so airflow across the core will cool IAT at least on a 7 sec car with air to air FMIC. Obviously the V3 is an absolute mammoth IC core compared to anything else out there.

I also believe I had one of the earlier V1's with the Modine core when he was still able to get them. The middle core he used was the one I dont think worked as well but I also think he only produced a hand full of them. The last company he used was out of Philly and it was the same company we used that Lonnie build 12 or so IC's. Those cores did work well and I believe those IC's are still running around these days.

Ironically I have been looking for a new IC for my t-type, my CAS V4 took a hit from road debris. I just picked up a GN1 FMIC and curious to see how it works. Im not super excited about the core design from what I can see but it looks like a nice piece overall. We'll see how it works for a street car with AC with a 6768 turbo.
 
This is one of Lonnies V1s. IATs were measured in the intake, not the pipe, so the numbers are not 100%. With the V1, i would see on average 100° at the line, and 120 to 125 trough the traps. With the slic, same 100 at the line and 128 has been the most I have seen through the traps. I picked up 30hp with the timing and slightly leaner afr. This could have been put in place with the V1, and probably would have went 8.7s@153 or so. I started making changes at the track, saw gains, then went on the dyno, put the tune back where it was orginally, and ended up where i was at the track. The engine combo is the same, the only changes have been turbo and intercooler. I sold the 3 bolt orginally to run a 7275 4 bolt, and had a 3 bolt 7168 on the shelf, so tried it with the slic. The 6870 is a stronger turbo than the 7168. On the same tune up, in swamp air the car went 3.5mph faster than i ever did with the V1. Now I am not telling everyone to sell their front mounts and buy a slic. You will not get this performance from any available slic. Reds just works.
 
This is one of Lonnies V1s. IATs were measured in the intake, not the pipe, so the numbers are not 100%. With the V1, i would see on average 100° at the line, and 120 to 125 trough the traps. With the slic, same 100 at the line and 128 has been the most I have seen through the traps. I picked up 30hp with the timing and slightly leaner afr. This could have been put in place with the V1, and probably would have went 8.7s@153 or so. I started making changes at the track, saw gains, then went on the dyno, put the tune back where it was orginally, and ended up where i was at the track. The engine combo is the same, the only changes have been turbo and intercooler. I sold the 3 bolt orginally to run a 7275 4 bolt, and had a 3 bolt 7168 on the shelf, so tried it with the slic. The 6870 is a stronger turbo than the 7168. On the same tune up, in swamp air the car went 3.5mph faster than i ever did with the V1. Now I am not telling everyone to sell their front mounts and buy a slic. You will not get this performance from any available slic. Reds just works.

Your making a lot of HP with the IC and it is an exceptional piece for sure. Very impressive result with a SLIC!! Call me or send me an email on the V1 I will take it off your hands. Also, may want to pick you brain on the turbo too.
 
I’ll put the hundreds of thousands of dollars to much better use. I have an intercooler that’s working very well. I didn’t get it by copying what’s out there either. You’re taking leaves. You get paid per yard. You spend 2 hours per yard and get 98% if the leaves or you spend 15 hours per yard and get 100%. Which one are you going to do? Engineer an intercooler that gets 98% of the potential for nearly nothing or have an entire r&d department put in place to get 100%?


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What intercooler do you use or is it home grown? I use an RJC 315 because it is a good compromise for a street car & will handle a few passes as well. My car is instrumented for temps at present. Pressure transducers will follow shortly. I can use this data for calibration work.
 
I’ll put the hundreds of thousands of dollars to much better use. I have an intercooler that’s working very well. I didn’t get it by copying what’s out there either. You’re taking leaves. You get paid per yard. You spend 2 hours per yard and get 98% if the leaves or you spend 15 hours per yard and get 100%. Which one are you going to do? Engineer an intercooler that gets 98% of the potential for nearly nothing or have an entire r&d department put in place to get 100%?


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What intercooler do you use or is it home grown? I use an RJC 315 because it is a good compromise for a street car & will handle a few passes as well. My car is instrumented for temps at present. Pressure transducers will follow shortly. I can use this data for calibration work.

It’s a bell core with modified cheap cast Treadstone tanks


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It’s a bell core with modified cheap cast Treadstone tanks


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If it's a Bell core with proper sizing & vein orientation you should have a small pressure drop with good heat rejection.Its cool to design your own end tanks to minimize pressure drop & drive distribution to the entire core.
 
It’s a bell core with modified cheap cast Treadstone tanks


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If it's a Bell core with proper sizing & vein orientation you should have a small pressure drop with good heat rejection.Its cool to design your own end tanks to minimize pressure drop & drive distribution to the entire core.

It has very low pressure drop and very good heat rejection. We didn’t want to design tanks for that particular project. This would have added more complexity since the pieces would be sheet aluminum.. The cast tanks we used fit the bill after some Small modification and are much more rigid than a sheet metal type tank of similar thickness. It saved time on drawing and fabricating. We have a 4.5” thick one designed very similar with fabricated tanks but will be noticeably heavier and for what I’m doing with the small engine and low rpm/moderate mass flow it wasn’t needed.


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All of this talk about thinking of the intercooler as a heat sink has me considering dedicated intercooler fans.

In the “big diesel” world where full load operation is considerably longer than 8-10 seconds at a time, the CAC out temperatures drop quickly when the fan engages.
 
All of this talk about thinking of the intercooler as a heat sink has me considering dedicated intercooler fans.

In the “big diesel” world where full load operation is considerably longer than 8-10 seconds at a time, the CAC out temperatures drop quickly when the fan engages.
You just need a core that can absorb the 8 to 10 sec pull. Fans and airflow do nothing during a pass. They are needed to cool after the pass. And a front mount sitting after a pass in front of a 180°radiator isnt doing much cooling without a fan running. But the core is larger, so cooling it back down isnt that big of a deal. 5 mins of sitting with the hood open, my slic is cool to the touch. On a diesel rig, it needs airflow to keep the core cool.
 
All of this talk about thinking of the intercooler as a heat sink has me considering dedicated intercooler fans.

In the “big diesel” world where full load operation is considerably longer than 8-10 seconds at a time, the CAC out temperatures drop quickly when the fan engages.

Fin selection and density play a crucial role in the thermal efficiency of the core.

Selecting the appropriate fins for your application for both the charge-air and the ambient-air passageways will have more influence on the absorption and dissipation of heat across the core than any external fans that fit in the confines of the core support area could have.

I have not finished editing and proof reading all the sections, but you may want to take a look at this article on intercooler design I'm in the process of writing. Pretty lengthy, and some areas I need to remove redundancies, but I think it does a good job of providing easy to understand analogies of some of the more complex topics regarding intercoolers. I tried to include as many relevant photos as I could. https://www.boostedrps.com/single-p...ts-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-Intercoolers
 
It has very low pressure drop and very good heat rejection. We didn’t want to design tanks for that particular project. This would have added more complexity since the pieces would be sheet aluminum.. The cast tanks we used fit the bill after some Small modification and are much more rigid than a sheet metal type tank of similar thickness. It saved time on drawing and fabricating. We have a 4.5” thick one designed very similar with fabricated tanks but will be noticeably heavier and for what I’m doing with the small engine and low rpm/moderate mass flow it wasn’t needed.


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I saw an individual crack an end tank. Material thickness / grain structure /material?
 
It has very low pressure drop and very good heat rejection. We didn’t want to design tanks for that particular project. This would have added more complexity since the pieces would be sheet aluminum.. The cast tanks we used fit the bill after some Small modification and are much more rigid than a sheet metal type tank of similar thickness. It saved time on drawing and fabricating. We have a 4.5” thick one designed very similar with fabricated tanks but will be noticeably heavier and for what I’m doing with the small engine and low rpm/moderate mass flow it wasn’t needed.


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I saw an individual crack an end tank. Material thickness / grain structure /material?

I don’t know what the material was. They were cheap tanks. I pressure tested to 75psi and hit it with bursts of pressure directly off my air compressor. I doubt I’ll have any problems. Allan’s intercooler was fabricated with 6061 sheet metal and the thickness was overkill but we didn’t want any potential for flexing. The highest logged pressure I ever saw on rapid throttle closure at 32psi/6000rpm was about 50psi. Not even close to where I tested too. I probably could have thrown 125psi at it but didn’t see the need to test that high


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Got some quasi-steady state data to consider
Ambient 95F
Ram Air 51mph
Hot Boost 446F steady at comp out
Compressor MAF 51lb/min steady

Intercooler out (fan off) 150F and increasing
Intercooler out (fan ON) 118F stabilizing

This is full load operation, meaning that mass flow and hot boost temp are constant, about 5 minutes worth of full load.
 
Got some quasi-steady state data to consider
Ambient 95F
Ram Air 51mph
Hot Boost 446F steady at comp out
Compressor MAF 51lb/min steady

Intercooler out (fan off) 150F and increasing
Intercooler out (fan ON) 118F stabilizing

This is full load operation, meaning that mass flow and hot boost temp are constant, about 5 minutes worth of full load.

Wow, 446F was the outlet temp from the turbo?

If it is not too intrusive, may I please ask what turbo you are running, and at what psi?

From your signature it seems you are running E85, correct?

Thank you for this data!
 
Wow, 446F was the outlet temp from the turbo?

If it is not too intrusive, may I please ask what turbo you are running, and at what psi?

From your signature it seems you are running E85, correct?

Thank you for this data!
That’s a 70mm Borg Warner VGT on a 13L diesel. Around 30psi.
It’s just something to illustrate that cooling fans matter. The capacity of the intercooler core is actually similar to some of the stuff used on our cars. A/C has priority cooling too, so the condenser is out in front.
 
Wow, 446F was the outlet temp from the turbo?

If it is not too intrusive, may I please ask what turbo you are running, and at what psi?

From your signature it seems you are running E85, correct?

Thank you for this data!
That’s a 70mm Borg Warner VGT on a 13L diesel. Around 30psi.
It’s just something to illustrate that cooling fans matter. The capacity of the intercooler core is actually similar to some of the stuff used on our cars. A/C has priority cooling too, so the condenser is out in front.

The fan is helping in your example because the core would be saturated from extended running under load.


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The fan is helping in your example because the core would be saturated from extended running under load.


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When the fan engages, the CACout drops from 149F to 124F in 17 seconds.
From 124F to 118F the slope is much flatter.
 
ANy info on the CAS 4V Stock location IC ?
Was thinking of going Front Mount but unsure what one to use then saw this post and wondering if I should even bother or should I change to a Different SLIC ?
 
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