On center with hyd roller cam?
- Thread starter Eticket
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its2qik said:"are you just saying this based on what you've heard from others?"
Sorry man had to do it
I am getting my motor assembled and will be running hydraulic lifters in my stage 2 block, using r champion heads. Could Mike {blown v6}or anyone who has a lot of knowledge about this mater give us your opinion on this? Thanks
It is my understanding..... that Champion GN1 "R" heads require the offset lifters..... like the stage motors. Like already mentioned....I have yet to see any offset hydraulic lifters....... not saying there aren't any.... just that I am not aware of any. Don't let that "R" head confuse you with GN1 Aluminum's that have been ported by Champion...... the "R" heads I think actually have a larger valve or valves as compared to regular GN1's. I'm assuming the "R"s have the valve spacing moved or slightly altered (as compared to regular GN1 heads) to allow for clearance for the larger valve diameter(s)....therfore necessitating the use of offset lifters to keep pushrod angles looking decent.
I also believe the pedistal (jessel) style rockers that the "R" heads take are slightly different (different spacing) than the regular GN1 heads require.
And at some point..... the "R" heads got a small diameter spark plug..... similar to a Seadoo jetski sparkplug...... I assume they did this so they would have more "meat" between the sparkplug hole and the intake valve seat...... this I assume was in response to the earlier GN1 heads that cracked regularly between the spark plug hole and the intake valve seat.
With all that said.... I think the most current casting.... is their strongest casting to date......which has the GN1 engraved into the end of the head.... and has the extra meat cast in the deck below the exhaust ports. (This is visiable by observing the outer portion of the deck all the way down the head... just below the exhaust ports. The latest has no scalloped out places around the extra head bolt holes...... the latest is straight across)
Per Tom @ Champion..... the original aluminum GN1's were only an aluminum head to be used as a stock "replacement" or alternative to running the iron head. They were not designed for big power. The racers pushed the heads harder and harder... until they started cracking. Then Champion updated the casting to make it stronger in the areas that had shown to be weak. Then racers pushed them and pushed them... to higher and higher HP levels.... until they began cracking again....... Champion revised the casting again. This process of beefing up.... and pushing the heads.... has lasted several generations of Champion heads. I am told the most current casting heads.... can be pushed possibly to 1500+ HP..... and they have had near 0 issues with the most current casting.....
Now.... you have depleted most of my GN1 head knowledge and theories that I have stored in my pea brain..... :frown:
Squid4life
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2004
Great info, thanks for posting it up!
turbofabricator
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
I have built on center StageII engines with ported 8445 iron heads, flat tappet hydraulic cam with no problems.
I am currently building an on-center StageII with a hydraulic roller, Morel lifters, ported TA heads, and other than performing the oiling mods needed, it is a straight forward deal.(valvetrain issues) Read the latest version of the Power Source manual, too. The earlier book doesn't contain the needed info. The as cast blocks do not have the transfere hole drilled from the cam bearing to the drivers side oil gallery. You can avoid drilling this hole, which requires a 12" long drill bit to reach, by using a transfere tube at the back of the block between the two oil galleries. The blocks have bosses that need to be drilled for the lifter bore oiling. 1/8 (.125) is acceptable for a hydraulic lifter. Getting an oil pump is also a bit harder than with a 109 block. The timing cover must be machined .125" (face of the timing cover) to align the cam sensor/oil pump drive gear. This requires shimming pulleys to align, too. Then use a high volume pump and an external feed pan with the Duttweiler pump cover and use 455 HV pump gears cut down. (search for this info on how to perform this) You can use the stock oil filter adaptor IF you feed the pump using the upper feed hole and drill a .625" hole in the block face and then intersect it at 90* to the side of the block and fabricate a feed tube. Alot easier to use the Duttweiler system IMO. Turning a StageII on-center into a daily street driver is alot more work than most folks want to deal with on their own. You can just buy an engine set-up from DLS, Nick, and others, and not have the headaches worrying if you got it all right. The Power Source manual is VERY helpful. Use your head and take your time figuring out the oil path for everything.
I am currently building an on-center StageII with a hydraulic roller, Morel lifters, ported TA heads, and other than performing the oiling mods needed, it is a straight forward deal.(valvetrain issues) Read the latest version of the Power Source manual, too. The earlier book doesn't contain the needed info. The as cast blocks do not have the transfere hole drilled from the cam bearing to the drivers side oil gallery. You can avoid drilling this hole, which requires a 12" long drill bit to reach, by using a transfere tube at the back of the block between the two oil galleries. The blocks have bosses that need to be drilled for the lifter bore oiling. 1/8 (.125) is acceptable for a hydraulic lifter. Getting an oil pump is also a bit harder than with a 109 block. The timing cover must be machined .125" (face of the timing cover) to align the cam sensor/oil pump drive gear. This requires shimming pulleys to align, too. Then use a high volume pump and an external feed pan with the Duttweiler pump cover and use 455 HV pump gears cut down. (search for this info on how to perform this) You can use the stock oil filter adaptor IF you feed the pump using the upper feed hole and drill a .625" hole in the block face and then intersect it at 90* to the side of the block and fabricate a feed tube. Alot easier to use the Duttweiler system IMO. Turning a StageII on-center into a daily street driver is alot more work than most folks want to deal with on their own. You can just buy an engine set-up from DLS, Nick, and others, and not have the headaches worrying if you got it all right. The Power Source manual is VERY helpful. Use your head and take your time figuring out the oil path for everything.
lifters,heads etc,
I have champion R head with the larger intake valves, i had to buy the rocker arms for the new r head, my old rocker arms [t&d] looked like the new ones but would not interchange or so i was told. my heads have the logo on end and have 14mm spark plugs, i didnt use offset lifter in my offcenter engine,
and i have another offcenter with stage heads and no offset lifters,
another engine oncenter stage heads no offset lifters,
i think i have two or more sets of offset lifters some where in my garage,
only time i broke push rods was when i had valve spring binding problems,
in a few days i will take the oncenter engine apart that ruggles built and see what lifters he used, im not saying im wright . seems to work for me,
good luck oc,
I have champion R head with the larger intake valves, i had to buy the rocker arms for the new r head, my old rocker arms [t&d] looked like the new ones but would not interchange or so i was told. my heads have the logo on end and have 14mm spark plugs, i didnt use offset lifter in my offcenter engine,
and i have another offcenter with stage heads and no offset lifters,
another engine oncenter stage heads no offset lifters,
i think i have two or more sets of offset lifters some where in my garage,
only time i broke push rods was when i had valve spring binding problems,
in a few days i will take the oncenter engine apart that ruggles built and see what lifters he used, im not saying im wright . seems to work for me,
good luck oc,
It may be a case where the geometry would be "better" when you used the offset lifters.... but is still "acceptable" in certain cases even if you don't use the offset lifters.
FWIW... no more than they can be offset (maybe one pushrod diameter?)...... I find it difficult to grasp that it would be painfully obvious that you "must" run the offset lifters..... no? As long as there is clearance in the pushrod holes in the heads.
From an engineering standpoint... the closer the geometry can be to "correct" the better....
How much of this applies to an off-center Stage 2 block with stage 2 heads?
Like 9 sec said, I am running Comp hyd roller lifters in a 153 block. Champ R heads with T D rockers 1.65. Had to open up pushrod holes mainly toward intake gasket side. We had to drill the block to get oil to valvetrain, .080 hole in to lifter bore, It was explained to me the hole in the side of lifter will limit oil supply anyway. In 7 yrs street driving have never had any problems w/ wear or clatter but did have to have TD make a thicker set of rocker bars to get geometry correct. Likely due to my low block deck height which I cant remember right now. BTW, TD did this at no charge, I just paid shipping.
I'm no expert on all this but luckily my machine shop has extensive experience with Bush North motors.
I'm no expert on all this but luckily my machine shop has extensive experience with Bush North motors.
Sorry. This doesn't work. Just ask Dominic and make sure you pay attention real good, too.:wink:
turbofabricator
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
The off center blocks have provisions for wet sump. You still must verify all the oiling holes are drilled. (good to do on any new block, anyway.) Don't trust anything to be done by the factory. May have been 3 minutes before lunch, Chinese food for lunch............. then have to take the rest of the day off on the toilet........OOPS! I forgot to drill those holes. It even happens in Aviation. Double check everything, trust NO one. Then check again.
