ok guys...help me TUNE this smc alky kit!

[d0n_3d]

i am not sure if i am tuning this thing right...but yesterday i did multiple runs around the block (at a friends house in the middle of nowhere) and when i first started out...i went WOT and boost shot up to 24-25 lbs in first gear and the knock meter redlined instantly and i let off completely...this was pump speed MAXED and pump spray on point at only 10-11 lbs of boost...(this is a dual nozzle smc kit btw)

soooo...i decided to turn down the boost...got it to where the rod was barely tugging on the wastegate hook...tooker for a spin again and this time WOT boost was 21-22 lbs and this time i got no knock at all...i turned down the pump speed a little bit down to 8 and spray on point was still 10-11 lbs...

now...when i have this same setting with 2 other people in the car...it seems to redline the knock meter again...or sometimes it goes in the last orange...same 21-22 lbs of boost and everything...why is my car so sensitive to extra weight in the car??? with just me the car doesn't knock at all...when i add people it knocks like crazy! what should i do here? this is on a factory stock motor with just valve spring upgrade, te-44 turbo, 50's, extender chip with 22 degrees timing...

how much boost is everyone getting on a dual nozzle setup? i thought for sure i would be able to hit 25 lbs no problem...guess not...

 

[Razor]

There are lots of variables..adding extra people adds weight and increases load..also just becuase its dual nozzle doesnt guarantee anything.

Your chips timing and fueling have to be tailored for the alcohol quantity being sprayed.

Get the car to run 100 percent at a lower boost level then start increasing the boost..you will find its limits pretty fast.once at the limit figure out whats the next step..less timing or more alky or less fuel and more alky..etc..

Also try running straight denatured..its easier to tune.

Lastly the knock your seeing is at what speed and RPM? Did you record the run on direct scan? Or is it a transitional knock thing.

More too this than slap the kit on and turn some knobs.

 

[d0n_3d]

well i think i solved the knock problem...i increased fuel pressure to 48-50 psi line off...took her for a spin and went WOT at 21 lbs of boost and no knock whatsoever...pump speed maxed out and turn on point at 11 lbs still...wow this car pulls hard now...i think i was just running too lean before with the 45 psi fuel pressure...i will have to verify this of course and hook up turbolink and do a couple test runs to see my o2 mvs...i would rather be too rich than too lean!

 

[Razor]

Adding fuel helps knock but makes the car lazy..you should have your scan tool always recording when tuning..

Problem is your at pump speed 10..cant go further..maybe look into getting bigger nozzles and bring that pump speed down..

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by d0n_3d
well i think i solved the knock problem...i increased fuel pressure to 48-50 psi line off...took her for a spin and went WOT at 21 lbs of boost and no knock whatsoever...pump speed maxed out and turn on point at 11 lbs still...wow this car pulls hard now...i think i was just running too lean before with the 45 psi fuel pressure...i will have to verify this of course and hook up turbolink and do a couple test runs to see my o2 mvs...i would rather be too rich than too lean!

You should always monitor o2 and knock with a scanner.Also check you're fuel pressure gauge to make sure it is accurate.

I luckily was monitoring o2's and knock when tuneing my car.and even though the fuel pressure gauge was reading 58 psi before it was all over the car was running correctly.I went and checked the fuel pressure gauge against a calibrated one and guess what?It was reading twelve pounds higher the the fuel pressure was actually at So 58 became 46.If I hadn't taken it easy on the car, monitored o2's and knock with direct scan and just set the fuel pressure at 45 by the gauge which would have been 33 psi's I would probibly still be picking up pieces of my engine off the road.

 

[d0n_3d]

guys i am getting severe knock again...i turned up the fuel pressure a little bit and at WOT i was getting low 800's on the o2s...no knock earlier this morning...but then i go wot again a few hours ago and same settings and i redline the knock meter!!! pump speed was maxed and turn on point at the same 11 lbs...i am just wondering if i should have the alcohol spray at a really early level like 5-7 lbs of boost?

why do i knock sometimes big time and other times i don't knock at all? i don't get it...i am about ready to start putting in 100 unleaded in my car all the time if that's what it takes....sheesh

 

[d0n_3d]

wait i think i know the problem...after reading some previous threads...is it possible that when i mash the pedal...the boost shoots up to 20-22 lbs INSTANTLY and it's doing it before the alcohol has a chance to spray? is that why i am redlining the knock meter sometimes??? that makes sense...so if i set the turn on point really low...then maybe it will spray sooner and not cause knock? that's about the only solution i can think of...i will try it...

 

[Turbo__Tim]

First what the heck are you doing running 22 psi with all that stock stuff?

Secondly you are not making that much more, if any more power trying to stretch the limits of the stock turbo that far. If you were making power in that range, the rest of us would go back to the stockers..

The reason you are overheating is because you are running on the edge. Sometimes you are dousing the flame, and the left over fuel is accumulating in the header and heating everything up. Misfiring, and popping also is setting the knock detector off. try to run with zero knock. Once the knock starts, the resulting timing decrease makes it difficult to get 'back on track' with the alchy continuing to pour in there, and making the flooding worse.

Turning the fp works to a point with pump gas. You are prolly just making things worse doing this. Go back to 42#.

Forget anything over 18-19 psi for now. Leave the turn-on point at 2 psi less than the point you normally experience knock. Turn the pump speed to half. Maybe add 10 percent water.

If you had an egt, you could keep an eye on the rising temps, and try to end the quarter with a 1650* (or thereabouts) temperature.

Now the alchy can do it's job of cooling the intake without trying to cool all that hot air the stocker is throwing at you. Cooler air will leave more room for the oxygen to get in there, which is what you want! Work within the limits of your equipment. Anyone running that much boost with what you have is just trying to measure power by the boost guage. Ain't nescessarily so! Alchy is not a magic bullet, it can optimize what you have, but it will not help you overcome things like stock heads, and dirty intercoolers. BTW have you cleaned yours out? Checked it for leaks?

Remember the object is not to run more boost, it's to make more power. Many many people have seen that lowering boost allows for more power. I suspect you will find this to be true once you have taken it to the track, and compare times of your favorite combinations.

Good luck!

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by d0n_3d
wait i think i know the problem...after reading some previous threads...is it possible that when i mash the pedal...the boost shoots up to 20-22 lbs INSTANTLY and it's doing it before the alcohol has a chance to spray? is that why i am redlining the knock meter sometimes??? that makes sense...so if i set the turn on point really low...then maybe it will spray sooner and not cause knock? that's about the only solution i can think of...i will try it...

Tim..your theory is theory

Stock turbo will work at those boost levels..and the problem d0n_3d is typical of a turnon point set too high. Hence why I started working on a progressive controller for these specific issues. Steve at SMC I hear is also in the works with a progressive controller.. The stock turo spools really fast..more so if you lose traction..

dOn_3d try the following..when you mash the pedal..go over and hit the red button on top of the controller..bet you wont have any knock if you do both at the same time.

If you set the turnon too low..then you'll blow black smoke when you hit the turnon..also pump speeds under 7-8 wont work when your pushing over 22 lbs..and dont even think about water

Post back and let me know if the pushing the button while you jab the throttle works.

 

[d0n_3d]

Originally posted by Razor
Tim..your theory is theory

Stock turbo will work at those boost levels..and the problem d0n_3d is typical of a turnon point set too high. Hence why I started working on a progressive controller for these specific issues. Steve at SMC I hear is also in the works with a progressive controller.. The stock turo spools really fast..more so if you lose traction..

dOn_3d try the following..when you mash the pedal..go over and hit the red button on top of the controller..bet you wont have any knock if you do both at the same time.

If you set the turnon too low..then you'll blow black smoke when you hit the turnon..also pump speeds under 7-8 wont work when your pushing over 22 lbs..and dont even think about water

Post back and let me know if the pushing the button while you jab the throttle works.

hey guys i am NOT running the stock turbo...i am running a brand new te-44 with 50 lb injectors...

secondly...i am knocking at like 15-16 lbs of boost no matter how fast i mash the pedal...even if i gradually get the boost up on the highway up to 15 lbs the knock gauge starts to light up pretty quick until i let off...i was getting low 800's like 808 -790 on the o2 mvs...this was at 21 lbs of boost, 93 octane and fuel pressure at 45 line off...alky turn on point at 10 lbs and pump speed at 8


what is causing this knock??? i am not sure if i need to run xlyene in the tank all the time now because i don't have enough octane???

 

[d0n_3d]

i forgot to mention that i wonder if my spark plugs are gapped too tight? i have my cr42ts plugs gapped at .032"

or are these plugs too cold for my application???

 

[Turbo__Tim]

d0n_3d Sometimes the simple solutions are the ones that avoid us. Of course you may have gotten a bad batch of gas. I'm chasing a knock problem right now, and the first thing I did was spike the gas with some toulene. Good first step

BTW, how much boost can you normally run without more than 3 degrees of retard? (no alchy)

The plugs are fine, though strong spark is needed as well...Try the high octane first, so see which way you need to go...

 

[Red Regal T]

I installed a 44 about 5 months ago. I was running 22-23 lbs with the stock turbo and everthing was working great. As soon as I installed the the 44, I encountered a great deal of knock retard above 15lbs of boost. I figured my chip, that was good for the stocker, wasn't good for the 44. I had my fuel in my chip increased quite a bit and since then, all has been normal.

 

[Razor]

Did you try mashing the button while doing your test?

Please respond

 

[d0n_3d]

Originally posted by Razor
Did you try mashing the button while doing your test?

Please respond

yes i didn't get any knock doing this...but i shouldn't have to press the test button evertime i go wot...i guess my problem is the alky isn't spraying fast enough with the boost...cause when i mash the pedal i am telling you the boost shoots up to 21 lbs instantly in a second...by the time i see the boost hit 21 lbs the alky has JUST started spraying basically and walla i redline the knock meter...hmmmmm but then when i gradually press down the gas the knock is still there...and doesn't go away until later in the run at the top end....then i can get up to 20-21 lbs with no knock...weird! ok i am going to take this car around the block and turn down the boost big time and also the alky and go from there...i will let you know the results...

 

[Razor]

Sometimes you cant see the forest through the trees

Set your turnon to 8-10 lbs pump speed 10..tell me what happens then..

About the pushing the red button.. I guess you havent read my other posts

Been there dun that..got the shirt

 

[d0n_3d]

ok the tuning continues...

i set the spray on point way down to around 5-6 lbs of boost and pump speed at 6 exactly...fuel pressure back down to 45 psi line off...boost was at 20-21 lbs this all on straight 93 octane

i got no knock at all this time going wot from several mph rolls...once at 15...then 35 mph...then at highway speed of 55 mph...got a couple green lights to light up a couple times but that was shift knock i believe...no redlining like before so i guess the alky just needs to come on alot sooner than i thought for this to work since the turbo spools up so dang fast! now maybe i will try turning up the boost a lb or two and see what happens...i think i am finally getting the hang of this...thanks for the replies guys

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Chip/timing?

I didn't see the info as to what chip you have in the car.
1. The SMC kit should be used w/ a race chip... more fuel and less timing than a street chip.
2. I sell and install the SMC kits. I have done considerable testing on them, and find that there is a 2+ sec lag between pump on and full spray volume. This was done on my fuel injection bench, and as such was very repeatable. A fast spoolup, especially w/ a hi timing street chip, can induce knock. The cure seems to be to set the pump on point a bit lower.
3. You may also look at going to a larger nozzle on 1 of the spray locations. [More volume at lower pressure]

HTH,

 

[d0n_3d]

Re: Chip/timing?

Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
I didn't see the info as to what chip you have in the car.
1. The SMC kit should be used w/ a race chip... more fuel and less timing than a street chip.
2. I sell and install the SMC kits. I have done considerable testing on them, and find that there is a 2+ sec lag between pump on and full spray volume. This was done on my fuel injection bench, and as such was very repeatable. A fast spoolup, especially w/ a hi timing street chip, can induce knock. The cure seems to be to set the pump on point a bit lower.
3. You may also look at going to a larger nozzle on 1 of the spray locations. [More volume at lower pressure]

HTH,

i am using the extender chip with 23 degrees of timing in first gear and 21 degrees in the rest of the gears...so the timing is quite mild...like i said i just turned the turn on point really low like 5-6 lbs and now when i hit around 15 lbs of boost (where i would normally start to knock) the alky is spraying at full speed by then...before i had the turn on point at 13 lbs! then i tried 10...still too high

 

[gn85]

Re: Re: Chip/timing?

Originally posted by d0n_3d
i am using the extender chip with 23 degrees of timing in first gear and 21 degrees in the rest of the gears...so the timing is quite mild...like i said i just turned the turn on point really low like 5-6 lbs and now when i hit around 15 lbs of boost (where i would normally start to knock) the alky is spraying at full speed by then...before i had the turn on point at 13 lbs! then i tried 10...still too high

How is your part throttle driveability now?? Do you have any bog or anything like that?? Can you feel the stage coming on if you slowly apply the boost (bogging)? I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about alky. Thanks.