Oil path question...pump to cooler then filter?

[BoostMasterK]

Looking for someone to confirm/deny the path of oil after it leaves the pump

I bought a re-cored radiator and since I don't know the history of the internal oil cooler, I want to be sure any debris they couldn't flush out won't end up in my motor.

From what I can see, the oil goes from the pump, thru the cooler, thru the filter and finally to the motor. In the case of bypass, it skips both the cooler and filter...so bottom line, oil never goes through the cooler without being filtered too (?)



TIA!

Mike

 

[tom h]

Looking for someone to confirm/deny the path of oil after it leaves the pump

I bought a re-cored radiator and since I don't know the history of the internal oil cooler, I want to be sure any debris they couldn't flush out won't end up in my motor.

From what I can see, the oil goes from the pump, thru the cooler, thru the filter and finally to the motor. In the case of bypass, it skips both the cooler and filter...so bottom line, oil never goes through the cooler without being filtered too (?)

First part of your statement is mostly correct:

oil goes from the pump, thru the cooler, thru the filter and finally to the motor. In the case of bypass, it skips both the cooler and filter [if oil bypass occurs via relief valve in the oil pump cover, by then the oil has already gone through cooler; cooler is not bypassed]​

but it contradicts the 2nd part :

bottom line, oil never goes through the cooler without being filtered too (?)​

The 2nd statement is incorrect. Unfiltered oil always is going through the stock cooler.

For this reason, it can be risky to use a stock cooler if you don't know its history.

I suppose if the bypass was plugged, then in principle all oil going to the engine is filtered. But a plugged bypass has its own risks.

 

[BoostMasterK]

hi tom, thanks for the quick reply.

My bad on the phrasing on the second part...what I meant was, it seems the cooler and the filter are in series so if oil goes through the cooler then next stop is the filter. So I understand and agree with what you said- "unfiltered oil always is going through the stock cooler". No problem there.

What I don't understand is this- "if oil bypass occurs via relief valve in the oil pump cover, by then the oil has already gone through cooler; cooler is not bypassed".

So if the oil cooler is in series with the filter and the filter is bypassed by that big oil pump spring, then how can it get through the cooler? Seems that it would have to bypass both (?)


Thanks!

Mike

 

[tom h]

oops , my mistake, you are correct on the last point!

In the case of bypass, it [oil] skips both the cooler and filter​

 

[tom h]

Also, I think I better understand your original intention, namely:
-- any oil through cooler , necessarily must then go through filter.
-- any oil that bypasses, never went through cooler in the first place.
-- therefore, any debris in cooler should never get into engine.

In principle, this should be true. In practice, I would be reluctant to have a potential source of particles present.

The stock cooler is difficult to positively flush out, and opinions are mixed as to the effectiveness. However, attempting a flush with brake parts cleaner (or paint thinner, etc), alternated with compressed air, should quickly reveal whether there's any junk in the cooler to be concerned about (if the effluent is captured & examined).

if you're flushing the oil cooler, maybe also take the next step and do same for trans fluid cooler.

(wear eye protection, compressed air and fluids have a way of spraying everywhere!).

 

[BoostMasterK]

Thanks Tom, I think we're on the same page. When I cleaned out one of mine after a bearing failure, I flushed back and forth about 30 times and caught with a cheesecloth. For the most part everything came out in the first several flushes. After several clean cycles, I did "one last flush" and a particle did come out. So I am in the camp that they can't be 100% totally flushed.

The radiator vendor insisted he only uses clean cores but I don't think he has 20yr visibility to every radiator he gets so I take that assurance with a grain of salt.

Based on this thread though, I think it's fine.

thanks!

Mike

 

[JDEstill]

Mike -

Yeah, you are right - if it goes through the oil cooler, it has to hit the filter next. I too flushed out my oil cooler and called it ok. I know some folks have said they did that and then lost their rebuild, and blamed it on trash left in the cooler. In my mind the only way that can happen is if the filter itself has a bypass which opens and lets garbage pass on through. And some filters do, so that is plausible. One reason I prefer filters without an internal bypass. Here's a sketch I made up of the oil system path if it helps:
http://pages.prodigy.net/buickv6/CarStuff/oil pump schematic.pdf

John

 

[BoostMasterK]

Thanks John I tried to access your doc but DNS failure right now, I'll try again later.

Geez I didn't know that the filters themselves can have bypass too. Is there a way to tell without ripping it open? I think I have Delco PF-24 right now, but I've also used Mobil One M1-203.


Mike

 

[gnxtc2]

The oil cooler is a honeycomb type. It can not be cleaned out. I would either bypass it all together or install an external one.

But then again, it your motor.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[tom h]

...Geez I didn't know that the filters themselves can have bypass too. Is there a way to tell without ripping it open? I think I have Delco PF-24 right now, but I've also used Mobil One M1-203.
Mike

PF24 and the popular "supersize" Baldwin B9 do not have internal bypass. In general , only way to be sure on any specific filter is read their spec sheet (although sometimes you can tell by carefully looking inside, or cutting filter open.)

A filter with built-in bypass is not a bad thing.

The stock bypass built into oil pump cover is relatively weak, maybe 4-6 psi differential forces it open and unfiltered oil goes into engine (imagine an internal engine accident spreading shrapnel).

I have my stock bypass plugged and that is potentially risky , ie the filter can collapse on a cold start with thick oil, and cut off all oil flow to engine

For this reason I am considering modifying an RJC "Biggie" adapter to use the Baldwin B253, which has a robust 20 psi internal bypass.

for backgorund info: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/202784-baldwin-b253-oil-filter.html

I don't think RJC has any interest in making another type of Biggie, but as the B253 and B9/PF24 threads are so similar, I may be able to re-thread a Biggie for a B253, without losing too much metal.

 

[BoostMasterK]

The oil cooler is a honeycomb type. It can not be cleaned out. I would either bypass it all together or install an external one.

But then again, it your motor.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Hi Billy no doubt you are correct and your proposal is the safest course of action, but do you have any reason to doubt the filter will catch any particles that trickle out of the cooler?

tnx, Mike

 

[BoostMasterK]

I don't think RJC has any interest in making another type of Biggie, but as the B253 and B9/PF24 threads are so similar, I may be able to re-thread a Biggie for a B253, without losing too much metal.

Cool Tom, thanks for the info. Sounds like the pump bypass is a little touchy but with the increased area of the PF-24 it's probably bypassing much less than say a PF-47.

Mike

 

[tom h]

...with the increased area of the PF-24 it's probably bypassing much less than say a PF-47.
Mike

That's what I think, too.

Check out pics of the Baldwin B9 filter. It's about 20% larger than even the PF24, has same thread & gasket size, and fits into "Biggie"-equipped TRs.

Baldwin filters are more "industrial" and of generally sturdier build quality than "consumer filters" such as purolator and delco.

As more people learn of Baldwin, the brand is becoming more popular among TR owners. I use Baldwin on all my cars. Not available in typical retail stores (Autozone, Pep Boys, etc) , but widely available from "big truck" parts stores.
Baldwin Filters

 

[gnxtc2]

Hi Billy no doubt you are correct and your proposal is the safest course of action, but do you have any reason to doubt the filter will catch any particles that trickle out of the cooler?

tnx, Mike

Yes, with personal experience. I had a motor where the bearing self destructed. Eventhough the filter was loaded with copper material, there was copper material in the oil cooler. So anyone that says the filter will catch the any foreign debris prior to the cooler, I tell them different.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[ijames]

Yes, with personal experience. I had a motor where the bearing self destructed. Eventhough the filter was loaded with copper material, there was copper material in the oil cooler. So anyone that says the filter will catch the any foreign debris prior to the cooler, I tell them different.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

But Billy, according to the info above the flow is from cooler to filter, so the filter can't catch debris before the filter but it can catch metal coming through the filter and keep it from the bearings.