- Joined
- May 29, 2001
Saw on the news this morning that Wheaties won't be putting his picture on any of their cereal boxes....
No Wheaties for Hamm!
- Thread starter Buick From Hell
- Start date
John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Yeah they can put Dae Eun Kim on there instead as the "poor innocent victim of miscalculation". The message to kids is "even if you lose, you can complain enough to make the winner look like an ass so he'll be unpopular". 
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Hamm has no one to blame but himself. It's amazing how many people today can't see fit to do the right thing. Times sure have changed...
Hamm did nothing wrong. the Korean team , as any team, has mulitple oppotunities to make protests pertaining to scoring, scores and judging NONE of which they did in the time allotted. Let's bring up the "Tuck Rule" again , that's what this is
My letter to Sports Illustrated.
The men's gymnastic team has practiced their routines for over a year. Two days before the gymnasts are set to compete in the team competition, the judging authority advises the US team that the release moves in both Blaine Wilson and Jason Gatson's high bar routines are worth less than they had been told causing them to have to change their routines, adding more difficult release moves, two days before the event. Then in the men's all around, Paul Hamm wins gold by the closest margin ever by beating South Korea's Yang Tae-young by 12 thousandths of a point, .049 behind Hamm. After the competition was over, the judges were made aware of a scoring error. Each routine is given a point value based on difficulty. The judges incorrectly scored the South Korean because of a beginning point value being too low, allowing Hamm to win. Additionally, there were two separate incidents involving swimmers being disqualified then being reinstated, not because they shouldn't have been disqualified, but because their disqualifications were not reported correctly. There has been an inordinate amount of discussion pertaining to whether professional athletes should compete in the Olympics or if the competitors should remain amateur. These incidents, along with the scandal involving the pairs skating at the most recent winter Olympics, show that amateurs have already returned to the Olympics except it is in the officiating.
My letter to Sports Illustrated.
The men's gymnastic team has practiced their routines for over a year. Two days before the gymnasts are set to compete in the team competition, the judging authority advises the US team that the release moves in both Blaine Wilson and Jason Gatson's high bar routines are worth less than they had been told causing them to have to change their routines, adding more difficult release moves, two days before the event. Then in the men's all around, Paul Hamm wins gold by the closest margin ever by beating South Korea's Yang Tae-young by 12 thousandths of a point, .049 behind Hamm. After the competition was over, the judges were made aware of a scoring error. Each routine is given a point value based on difficulty. The judges incorrectly scored the South Korean because of a beginning point value being too low, allowing Hamm to win. Additionally, there were two separate incidents involving swimmers being disqualified then being reinstated, not because they shouldn't have been disqualified, but because their disqualifications were not reported correctly. There has been an inordinate amount of discussion pertaining to whether professional athletes should compete in the Olympics or if the competitors should remain amateur. These incidents, along with the scandal involving the pairs skating at the most recent winter Olympics, show that amateurs have already returned to the Olympics except it is in the officiating.
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Picture this. On learning the judges erred in scoring the Korean's routine, Hamm walks up to the Korean, removes the gold medal from around his neck, and places it on the Korean's.
Instead, he whined like a little girl at every opportunity for days on end. He'll forever be branded the whiner and poor sport. Enjoy your medal, Mr. Hamm.
Instead, he whined like a little girl at every opportunity for days on end. He'll forever be branded the whiner and poor sport. Enjoy your medal, Mr. Hamm.
Again, Hamm did nothing wrong. Slighlty off topic but take a peek at Nike's ad campain featuring Marion Jones amid countless doping allegations that she won't test for and compare it to Wheaties not putting Hammon a box because of Korean and judging errors.
Ok, so if the issue is ONLY about a judging/scoring error - what if it was the "International" Super Bowl? Let's say that the score is 22-20, the Korean team ahead of the American team.
Let's say it's the last play of the game and the American's kick a field goal right between the uprights. Three points, right? Well, it should be.
But let's further say that the referee/scorer's table only gives the American' ONE point (for a PAT) versus the mandated THREE points for a field goal.
Game ends, the final score is 22-21, the Koreans win.
All sorts of furor erupts; protests are lodged, every one knows that the wrong amount was added to the American's score; Sports Illustrated shows pictures of the 'winning' Korean team and the Korean public is elated.
But who REALLY won the game?
You guessed it - the Americans because they did the right thing but were given the WRONG score.
This is what happened to the S. Korean Gymnast - an error in scoring. And now some come forward saying that, well the protest wasn't filed in time, etc... whine, whine, whine.
Listen - if the situation was reversed you can bet your last nickel that Paul Hamm would be whining and crying to ANYone who would listen how HE got screwed. He would demand to be declared the ultimate winner or at least to receive a Gold Medal too. But that isn't the case.
The South Korean got screwed this time. And Paul Hamm, instead of being a stand up and honest guy, knowing full well that if the error had not been made he would have only won the silver, and given the opportunity to show what TRUE sportsmanship is about, instead whines that he should not even have to SHARE gold with the S. Korean who got the shaft.
If THAT isn't selfish, unsportsmanlike behavior, knowing what the facts are and still denying them, I don't know what is.
I am ashamed of his behavior and for ANYone who thinks that he deserves to keep what isn't truly his.
This isn't America anymore - it's All-about-me-ica.
Let's say it's the last play of the game and the American's kick a field goal right between the uprights. Three points, right? Well, it should be.
But let's further say that the referee/scorer's table only gives the American' ONE point (for a PAT) versus the mandated THREE points for a field goal.
Game ends, the final score is 22-21, the Koreans win.
All sorts of furor erupts; protests are lodged, every one knows that the wrong amount was added to the American's score; Sports Illustrated shows pictures of the 'winning' Korean team and the Korean public is elated.
But who REALLY won the game?
You guessed it - the Americans because they did the right thing but were given the WRONG score.
This is what happened to the S. Korean Gymnast - an error in scoring. And now some come forward saying that, well the protest wasn't filed in time, etc... whine, whine, whine.
Listen - if the situation was reversed you can bet your last nickel that Paul Hamm would be whining and crying to ANYone who would listen how HE got screwed. He would demand to be declared the ultimate winner or at least to receive a Gold Medal too. But that isn't the case.
The South Korean got screwed this time. And Paul Hamm, instead of being a stand up and honest guy, knowing full well that if the error had not been made he would have only won the silver, and given the opportunity to show what TRUE sportsmanship is about, instead whines that he should not even have to SHARE gold with the S. Korean who got the shaft.
If THAT isn't selfish, unsportsmanlike behavior, knowing what the facts are and still denying them, I don't know what is.
I am ashamed of his behavior and for ANYone who thinks that he deserves to keep what isn't truly his.
This isn't America anymore - it's All-about-me-ica.
In this analogy the coach has a remote on his belt that HE DIDN"T PUSH to review the play. In the event that the remote fails he has a red flag in his pocket THAT HE DIDN'T THROW.
Put the blame on Hamm but he didn't do anything wrong. The Koreans surely didn't do the right thing and that is fact. I don't know what to tell you if you feel ashamed because you shouldn't
My analogy was a tongue-in-cheek example involving two 'teams' that do not even exist and therefore, the coach did NOT have a 'push to review the play' button. It was simply meant to illustrate how a simple clerical error can give the 'win' to a wrong team, yet the team that, simply due to the ERROR supposedly 'lost', is actually the winner.
So what if you could review the play and then correct the score and then give the 'win' to the right team - shouldn't you?
And more importantly, you made no mention of how Hamm (or anyone else in the American Olympic Team) would feel if the situation were entirely reversed and it was Hamm who got the shaft. Why? Because you know as well as I do that they would be screaming bloody murder and how unfair it was and how greedy the South Korean is and how selfish the South Korean's as a people are, etc, etc, etc...
You KNOW you would and so would everyone else.
So why is it that the small voice in the dark that is saying "Do the right thing" is met with such resistance by people saying, "Hamm did nothing wrong"?
Why? Because others, like you, do not address the ROOT issues about Hamm - sportsmanship and honesty. You're right about one thing - during the routine he did nothing wrong. It is NOT his fault that the judges screwed up.
However, once he became aware of the fact that he ONLY GOT THE GOLD DUE TO A MISTAKE, he DID do something wrong by not being man enough and gracious enough to give the medal to the PROPER WINNER, the South Korean.
In my view, his 'gold' is severely tainted. He didn't truly 'win' it - it was GIVEN to him by MISTAKE.
That is NOT a win. It is stealing.
One other point...
Hamm could have turned the world on its collective ear, been treated as if he DID win it properly, gotten tons more endorsements and had his pic on the Wheaties box - all he needed to have done was upon learning of the scoring error, called a press conference with the South Korean and graciously given the Gold Medal to him saying, "Here - it's yours. YOU won it fair and square."
Can you imagine the response he would have received across the world and in this country? He would have been on every talk show, every news show, every newspaper, and in every synidicated columnist's paper. He would have been compared to many great sportsmen of the past. His name would have been worth more gold than the medal.
Instead, he chose to say, "No! It's MINE and I will NOT even share!". By doing so, his only claim to fame is a shallow, worthless argument that the South Korean's got what they deserved due to an error by a judge and therefore, HE is the actually winner.
THAT, my friend, is what I am ashamed of - his behavior as an American.
Hamm could have turned the world on its collective ear, been treated as if he DID win it properly, gotten tons more endorsements and had his pic on the Wheaties box - all he needed to have done was upon learning of the scoring error, called a press conference with the South Korean and graciously given the Gold Medal to him saying, "Here - it's yours. YOU won it fair and square."
Can you imagine the response he would have received across the world and in this country? He would have been on every talk show, every news show, every newspaper, and in every synidicated columnist's paper. He would have been compared to many great sportsmen of the past. His name would have been worth more gold than the medal.
Instead, he chose to say, "No! It's MINE and I will NOT even share!". By doing so, his only claim to fame is a shallow, worthless argument that the South Korean's got what they deserved due to an error by a judge and therefore, HE is the actually winner.
THAT, my friend, is what I am ashamed of - his behavior as an American.
BLACK6PACK
1 sec reaction King
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
The judges made an error in scoring due to the Korean's routine being factored too low, but they also missed a mistake that the Korean made. Two wongs don't make right, but in this case the scoring error and not penelizing the Korean for a mistake ended up being a wash, so in the end the american that won the medal deserved it.
- Joined
- May 29, 2001
I can understand both sides of this debate. Some might argue a similar situation happened in a certain recent presidential election (but--I ain't goin' there!)
But I WILL say this: Hamm may indeed be entitled to his medal, same as some sports teams have won games based on dubious calls; chalk it up to "it happens". HOWEVER, I think he would have gotten MORE attention, accolades, and positive press (read: $$$$$$) had he done as Raven suggests. The "sportsmanship" angle WAS worth (past tense) more than simply receiving the Gold Medal. Wheaties won't honor him, and this speaks volumes. Hamm may find it difficult to find much work in the 'endorsement' field.
Methinks he shot himself in the foot with a gold plated bazooka...
(jmo)
But I WILL say this: Hamm may indeed be entitled to his medal, same as some sports teams have won games based on dubious calls; chalk it up to "it happens". HOWEVER, I think he would have gotten MORE attention, accolades, and positive press (read: $$$$$$) had he done as Raven suggests. The "sportsmanship" angle WAS worth (past tense) more than simply receiving the Gold Medal. Wheaties won't honor him, and this speaks volumes. Hamm may find it difficult to find much work in the 'endorsement' field.
Methinks he shot himself in the foot with a gold plated bazooka...
(jmo)
Again, the Koreans had AMPLE oppotunity do right the wrong and they failed to do so. To answer your question is yes, it have been given to the Korean had they followed the rules. We can what if this thing to death, roles reversed ect but is not what happened. I wouldn't be ashamed of ones behavoir when it wasn't creatd by him. Better yet, take another look at how the facts of this played out, maybe that's where some of the confusion lies. It's pretty plain and simple
if i were him i think i would have handed over the gold. sure he did technically win it, but in reality he lost. shame on the koreans for not saying something earlier, but even still they were better, if only by a small small ammount.
he wasnt' the only person at fault taking a medal he didnt' earn. look at the 100 and 200 breast stroke. kitajima won both of those thanks in a big part to his cheating, if you didnt' see it yourself the commentators sure pointed it out. coming off the wall each time he threw in a dolphin kick, thats a BIG no no. in the 200 doing that off each wall probably gave him .5 second. if he didnt' cheat there is no way he would have won. maybe the 100 but even still i doubt it. and then why didn't the judges see it, it was as obvious as can be when your looking for that kind of thing. I didnt' follow much olympics, but i think there was probably a lot of mistakes made, some like hamms win were honest mistakes, others like kitijima winning makes me wonder if some things werent rigged a little.
but anyways i think in the kind of competition the olympics are that hamm should have given the medal to the deserving person, it sure would have made him look a lot better.
he wasnt' the only person at fault taking a medal he didnt' earn. look at the 100 and 200 breast stroke. kitajima won both of those thanks in a big part to his cheating, if you didnt' see it yourself the commentators sure pointed it out. coming off the wall each time he threw in a dolphin kick, thats a BIG no no. in the 200 doing that off each wall probably gave him .5 second. if he didnt' cheat there is no way he would have won. maybe the 100 but even still i doubt it. and then why didn't the judges see it, it was as obvious as can be when your looking for that kind of thing. I didnt' follow much olympics, but i think there was probably a lot of mistakes made, some like hamms win were honest mistakes, others like kitijima winning makes me wonder if some things werent rigged a little.
but anyways i think in the kind of competition the olympics are that hamm should have given the medal to the deserving person, it sure would have made him look a lot better.
John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Sorry, I don't buy it. If I showed up a day late with a winning lottery ticket, the state wouldn't do the right thing and pay me anyhow. BTW, these are supposed to be amateur sports, not springboards for careers.
While not the athletic Olympics, years ago I was involved in an activity that holds an annual world championship competition (medals and championship rings are awarded.) In my last year of eligibility a situation arose where after an undefeated season on our part only one of our competitors had an outside shot at us for the gold. After the final performance for each group, the audience knew who won, the performers knew who'd won. Heck, even the teaching/coaching staff of our rival group said, "Good try, but roses go to the other guys" (the group I was in.) When the scores were announced, we took 2nd and our rivals first...the boos from over 30,000 fans rained out of the stands for minutes on end. Cute girls came over and started hanging the golds around our competitors' necks. When we turned to the announced champions, they couldn't-- and wouldn't-- look us in the eyes. We took the defeat with class. After it was all over, a number of them came up to us and apologized. Did they hand over their medals? No.
Fast forward to August 2004, and I'm at the world championships again as a spectator. I was at a concession stand buying a Coke when I was approached by a group of three individuals about my age. One said, "Hi, we saw the patches on your jacket (pointing to one on my sleeve) and just wanted you to know that...you guys won that year." And he took my hand in his and shook it. I was speechless, as the patch he was pointing to was from 1985, my last year as I described above. I thanked them, and they went away.
My point: years may pass, but people remember who the true champions are.
-------------
Morgan
Fast forward to August 2004, and I'm at the world championships again as a spectator. I was at a concession stand buying a Coke when I was approached by a group of three individuals about my age. One said, "Hi, we saw the patches on your jacket (pointing to one on my sleeve) and just wanted you to know that...you guys won that year." And he took my hand in his and shook it. I was speechless, as the patch he was pointing to was from 1985, my last year as I described above. I thanked them, and they went away.
My point: years may pass, but people remember who the true champions are.
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Morgan
Excellent post, Morgan. And also - people remember who did or did NOT do the right thing as well...
You can only imagine how that hollow victory must have haunted that guy since 1985, knowing full well that he truly did not win and that his team was not actually the best team that day. Every time he looked at his medal, he KNEW he didn't truly earn it.
I wouldn't want to have to live with that lie. And that's precisely what it was for him - a lie.
Same as it is for Hamm - big, fat lie. He will ALWAYS know that the ONLY reason he got the gold is due to some guy's screw up and NOT because he actually outscored the guy.
I guess my biggest gripe with Hamm is that he even refused to consider the idea of another gold for the S. Korean.
That is so selfish that it defies comprehension. I'm sure the only reason he didn't want to 'share' a gold medal with some (a duplicate actually) was that he felt it would diminish his own.
Well, his own actions are what has diminished his improperly awarded medal, not what someone else may have done or wanted to do.
He deserves to have to live with himself the rest of his life.
OK Raven
Seeing as you continue to let your feelings run your keyboard or perhaps listened to the media about this a little to long, I'll give you the facts that should be focussed on. Yang Tae-young's routine had three holds that were authorized. These holds are part of the Koreans move the HE submitted. If you watched the actual routine or listened to NBC anylist Timothy Daggett, there were four holds which is a MANDATORY deduction that was not taken. Factor in the correct starting score then factor in the mandatory deduction and Hamm STILL wins the gold medal outright. This is perfect example as to why you can not anylize sports days after the event. This is the 18th post to this thread and has yet to be brought up...well...here it is. Hamm doesn't have to do the right thing as you say because he won both ways. There is nothing to give back. It is a non-issue. Respectfully. Drew
Seeing as you continue to let your feelings run your keyboard or perhaps listened to the media about this a little to long, I'll give you the facts that should be focussed on. Yang Tae-young's routine had three holds that were authorized. These holds are part of the Koreans move the HE submitted. If you watched the actual routine or listened to NBC anylist Timothy Daggett, there were four holds which is a MANDATORY deduction that was not taken. Factor in the correct starting score then factor in the mandatory deduction and Hamm STILL wins the gold medal outright. This is perfect example as to why you can not anylize sports days after the event. This is the 18th post to this thread and has yet to be brought up...well...here it is. Hamm doesn't have to do the right thing as you say because he won both ways. There is nothing to give back. It is a non-issue. Respectfully. Drew
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
To make the point that the Korean had more holds than permissible is the exact definition of rationalization. That Hamm/his camp would review recordings of the Korean's performance, looking for flaws, as a means of justifying their behavior shines a very bright light on their characters, does it not?
The horse is out of the barn, now. Keep your medal, Hamm. Years from now all that will be remembered is that you had the opportunity to do the right thing and shrunk from it. Your lust for the gold medal, sportsmanship be damned, showed you to be just who you are. I hope that medal is hollow - it would be fitting.
Funny how life provides lots of tests, big and small, every day, that reveal one's true character, even when we least expect it.
The horse is out of the barn, now. Keep your medal, Hamm. Years from now all that will be remembered is that you had the opportunity to do the right thing and shrunk from it. Your lust for the gold medal, sportsmanship be damned, showed you to be just who you are. I hope that medal is hollow - it would be fitting.
Funny how life provides lots of tests, big and small, every day, that reveal one's true character, even when we least expect it.
