New EPA Regs Make Our Cars Illegal?

[Darth Fiero]

You're sounding more and more like Alex Jones...

Emissions equipment does not hinder performance as much as you would think, the only reason why people remove them is because it reduces clutter, as well as members looking to pull every last tenth in the 1/4 mile that they can. Tuning bins can be switched back and forth on the fly if they ever attempted going as far as you are implying they will. The only thing that will affect smog is too much overlap, and ECM's will target any air/fuel ratio you need them to; idle, part throttle and wide open throttle. So let them sniff away. As for a stock appearing ten second Grand National, I believe there was a challenge on here awhile back, forget the winners name though, but he either ran it, or came damn close to doing it...

This isn't only about emissions equipment like EGR valves and such. The proposed EPA regs say you can't alter a factory emissions compliant device (including the entire engine) and that it must remain in its original factory certified configuration. So what does this mean? It sounds to me like it means it must remain 100% bone stock - no performance upgrades.

The EPA has already said they aren't coming after individual car owners (at first anyway). They stated their intention is to go after the parts manufacturers and service providers. I think you'll find it difficult to mod your car if no parts are available.

turbo89 said getting certification is easy. If it is easy and cheap to do, then why doesn't every part sold at your favorite performance parts vendor not already certified then???

 

[Darth Fiero]

So, by your logic they're going to take my license away because I own a modded car?

BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Are you F'n kidding me?

The EPA doesn't have the authority to revoke your driver's license. And they don't need to. They can impose a civil penalty (fine).

The fine for individuals for tampering with emissions control devices or certified emissions equipment is $3,750.00 per occurrence.
The fine for businesses for tampering with emissions control devices or certified emissions equipment is $37,500.00 per occurrence. (Which is not limited to businesses that install the parts - this extends to companies that manufacture parts that can be used on emissions certified vehicles).

Still have doubts? Go look at what the EPA did to Casper's. And that was done using the old regulations. The EPA, themselves, admit these new proposed regs will make it easier for them to enforce their rules and hand out fines.

I just can't believe how many of you are ignorant about what new powers would be given to them under these new proposed regs - and what they could do with them.

I wish this was nothing to worry about. I really do. My livelihood is threatened by what they want to do here. That's why I'm so concerned.

 

[MCH86GN]

Does this affect any model year vehicle that has emissions related components? For instance my 2000 s10, which the secondary air is not working?


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[Darth Fiero]

Does this affect any model year vehicle that has emissions related components? For instance my 2000 s10, which the secondary air is not working?

The EPA has already stated they do not intend to go after individuals with the new regs (at least at first). But even if they do, I don't think you have much to worry about if your secondary air injection system just quit working on its own. You would only need to worry if you had to submit the truck for an emissions inspection and they found the problem - but then they would probably give you time to repair the issue before hitting you with any fines whatsoever. As others have said (and I agree with), I don't think the EPA is going to smog everybody's car.

Now if you did something to the engine in your S10 to disable the secondary air system, that's a different story. In that case, you would be in violation. But again, the EPA has already said they are not going to pursue individuals right off the bat.

Instead, the EPA has stated it is their intention to use these proposed regs to pursue the manufacturers and service providers that provide parts and services for emissions compliant vehicles that alter the original emissions certified component (ie: like the engine). In this case, they don't need to smog any cars at all. All they would have to do is see if a company offered a product or service for any emissions certified vehicle or engine; and that company would be in violation if their product(s) and service(s) did not have such certification.

People in this thread say certification is easy to get - but I have been to various Turbo Buick vendors' websites and I haven't seen any of their products carry EPA certifications. Why is that?

 

[MCH86GN]

The EPA has already stated they do not intend to go after individuals with the new regs (at least at first). But even if they do, I don't think you have much to worry about if your secondary air injection system just quit working on its own. You would only need to worry if you had to submit the truck for an emissions inspection and they found the problem - but then they would probably give you time to repair the issue before hitting you with any fines whatsoever. As others have said (and I agree with), I don't think the EPA is going to smog everybody's car.

Now if you did something to the engine in your S10 to disable the secondary air system, that's a different story. In that case, you would be in violation. But again, the EPA has already said they are not going to pursue individuals right off the bat.

Instead, the EPA has stated it is their intention to use these proposed regs to pursue the manufacturers and service providers that provide parts and services for emissions compliant vehicles that alter the original emissions certified component (ie: like the engine). In this case, they don't need to smog any cars at all. All they would have to do is see if a company offered a product or service for any emissions certified vehicle or engine; and that company would be in violation if their product(s) and service(s) did not have such certification.

People in this thread say certification is easy to get - but I have been to various Turbo Buick vendor's websites and I haven't seen any of their products with EPA certifications. Why is that?

I had the secondary air injection fixed 3 times on my s10 under warranty. A cheap solution to meet emissions I guess or it wasn't ever fixed correctly at the dealership. As of right now, we don't even have to certify emissions in the state of MI and I wouldn't be taking my s10 to the track anytime soon. Probably safe.

Now on my Cruze, it is tuned and but no modifications to emissions components, except the software and calibration on the ECM/TCM. If they come sniffing around the tail pipe, I only have to enable cruise control and it switches the ECM and TCM back to stock sw and cals.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the 2018 MY and maybe sooner vehicles from GM are going to be requiring cyber security. Which means the convenient method, I know of, for tuning won't work anymore. I know several places who offer aftermarket tunes, they way they do this is by removing the processor from the controller and extract the programmed image stored on the embedded processor in the form of a binary file. Then they convert the binary to assembly or directly to C source and that is how they figure out the security algorithm and unlock security. With cyber security, this algorithm no longer resides on the said controller. We're not even a engine or transmission controller, but rather a transfer case controller and we are required to support cyber security. Cyber security also blocks the ability to read certain module information, such as DIDs and PIDs and other diagnostic services if they are considered secure, via the OBDII connector.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to hack into a cyber secured module and un-secure it, but it will require a lot of effort. It would appear the easiest way to do it would be to license the algorithm from GM, but then GM would be an enabler to aftermarket companies possibly modifying emissions related software/cals. So it's probably unlikely that GM would do such a thing.

 

[RANDALL]

You don't think SEMA is already all over this bullshit?

Correct, they made this proposed legislation public. SEMA is asking for support of the racer/hobbyist like us (by petition) to help give them some leverage. Why would any builder, manufacturer, vendor, racer or hobbyist not oppose any hint of additional EPA motorsports legislation by arguing it can't/won't happen and or can't/won't be enforced?

This thread has more ridiculousness than any i can remember in a long time.

Look again.

 

[Darth Fiero]

I'm not saying it isn't possible to hack into a cyber secured module and un-secure it, but it will require a lot of effort. It would appear the easiest way to do it would be to license the algorithm from GM, but then GM would be an enabler to aftermarket companies possibly modifying emissions related software/cals. So it's probably unlikely that GM would do such a thing.

I don't see them being able to make something 100% hack-proof as long as they make the flash software and tools available to non-dealers. If someone who writes custom tuning software is able to get their hands on a factory-authorized programming interface and allowed to purchase a subscription to the online flash utility (in order to reflash a factory module), then I don't see why someone couldn't reverse-engineer the security algorithms they use to "lock" the module's software.

The only way they could keep it secure would be to make it impossible for anyone outside of authorized manufacturer employees to gain access to the flash interface and online software.

 

[TurboTGuy]

The EPA doesn't have the authority to revoke your driver's license. And they don't need to. They can impose a civil penalty (fine).

The fine for individuals for tampering with emissions control devices or certified emissions equipment is $3,750.00 per occurrence.
The fine for businesses for tampering with emissions control devices or certified emissions equipment is $37,500.00 per occurrence. (Which is not limited to businesses that install the parts - this extends to companies that manufacture parts that can be used on emissions certified vehicles).

Still have doubts? Go look at what the EPA did to Casper's. And that was done using the old regulations. The EPA, themselves, admit these new proposed regs will make it easier for them to enforce their rules and hand out fines.

I just can't believe how many of you are ignorant about what new powers would be given to them under these new proposed regs - and what they could do with them.

I wish this was nothing to worry about. I really do. My livelihood is threatened by what they want to do here. That's why I'm so concerned.

I don't see them being able to make something 100% hack-proof as long as they make the flash software and tools available to non-dealers. If someone who writes custom tuning software is able to get their hands on a factory-authorized programming interface and allowed to purchase a subscription to the online flash utility (in order to reflash a factory module), then I don't see why someone couldn't reverse-engineer the security algorithms they use to "lock" the module's software.

The only way they could keep it secure would be to make it impossible for anyone outside of authorized manufacturer employees to gain access to the flash interface and online software.

Yet your gloom and doom ultimately predicts this very scenario, with no questions asked or answered.

Is that your ultimate point? The EPA is going take over our lives? We have no voice in all of this?

Are you certain this is the definitive outcome?

There is absolutely no way around this?

Do tell.

 

[Darth Fiero]

Yet your gloom and doom ultimately predicts this very scenario, with no questions asked or answered.

Is that your ultimate point? The EPA is going take over our lives? We have no voice in all of this?

Are you certain this is the definitive outcome?

There is absolutely no way around this?

Do tell.

MCH86GN asked a question and I gave a theoretical answer of how it could be done. Would it be legal under these new EPA regs? No. So where is he going to get tuning software from? Is he going to develop it himself? Who is going to put the time and effort into developing tuning software for a new ECM when it cannot be legally sold to anyone? I don't see a whole lot of incentive there.

I already told you multiple times in this thread that the EPA stated it wasn't going after the individual car owners with these new regs. Instead, they're going after the manufacturers and service providers - and these new regs will shut many of them down. What business is going to continue making products and services available that they can be fined $37,500 each occurrence for?

How many times does this need to be repeated before you numbskulls get it? There is no way in hell you are going to be able to get certification for a piece of software that can alter an emissions control device (like the ECM). That's exactly what the proposed EPA regs prohibit. It's right there in plain language in black and white. READ IT.

 

[jiho2]

I do find it hard to believe this rule will go into effect. But then crazier things have happened. And if it does go into effect, it would be easy for them to go after vendors for selling people parts, and the NHRA for letting people race. I'm just sayin' ....

 

[jiho2]

Oh, and the cost of getting a part certified here in California was $100,000, last I heard.

 

[turbo89]

Oh, and the cost of getting a part certified here in California was $100,000, last I heard.

It could also be as small as $350 .. depends on the part

 

[MCH86GN]

I don't see them being able to make something 100% hack-proof as long as they make the flash software and tools available to non-dealers. If someone who writes custom tuning software is able to get their hands on a factory-authorized programming interface and allowed to purchase a subscription to the online flash utility (in order to reflash a factory module), then I don't see why someone couldn't reverse-engineer the security algorithms they use to "lock" the module's software.

The only way they could keep it secure would be to make it impossible for anyone outside of authorized manufacturer employees to gain access to the flash interface and online software.

We're a supplier and the cryptographic algorithm isn't made available to us. That isn't intent of this thread, so I've leave it at that.

 

[Street Lethal]

So, by your logic they're going to take my license away because I own a modded car?

BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Are you F'n kidding me?

What the heck are you talking about? Did you not even read what I wrote? Who here said that they would "take your license away" simply for "owning" an illegal vehicle? I clearly stated that having a license is not a right, it is a privilege, and as such they can control "what" you drive if it does not meet their standards or guidelines. In fact, now that I think about it, if you continued driving an illegal vehicle after being pulled over, warned and ticketed, well then yes, maybe they can in fact reprimand you by license suspension if you fail to cooperate thereafter.

 

[Street Lethal]

This isn't only about emissions equipment like EGR valves and such. The proposed EPA regs say you can't alter a factory emissions compliant device (including the entire engine) and that it must remain in its original factory certified configuration. So what does this mean? It sounds to me like it means it must remain 100% bone stock - no performance upgrades.

The EPA has already said they aren't coming after individual car owners (at first anyway). They stated their intention is to go after the parts manufacturers and service providers. I think you'll find it difficult to mod your car if no parts are available.

... but this is irrelevant though. There is no need to go any faster than ten/eleven seconds on the street. The question you posed earlier of course is could it be done with stock parts and remain factory appearing. Stock heads, intakes, manifolds, plenums and throttle bodies can be ported while maintaining their numbers matching identity. An aftermarket camshaft with minimal lope would be impossible to prove, especially when most don't even know what the specs of a stock camshaft are to begin with, not to mention engraving a stock p/n on another cam is completely doable. Turbo's? Well, not too many can differentiate between a stock turbo and a TA49, and the latter turbo has already seen 10 seconds. Most aftermarket parts are overrated, and not really needed until you want to make a call out against the Street Outlaws, but by then you are no longer street legal anymore, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Darth Fiero]

... but this is irrelevant though. There is no need to go any faster than ten/eleven seconds on the street. The question you posed earlier of course is could it be done with stock parts and remain factory appearing. Stock heads, intakes, manifolds, plenums and throttle bodies can be ported while maintaining their numbers matching identity. An aftermarket camshaft with minimal lope would be impossible to prove, especially when most don't even know what the specs of a stock camshaft are to begin with, not to mention engraving a stock p/n on another cam is completely doable. Turbo's? Well, not too many can differentiate between a stock turbo and a TA49, and the latter turbo has already seen 10 seconds. Most aftermarket parts are overrated, and not really needed until you want to make a call out against the Street Outlaws, but by then you are no longer street legal anymore, so it doesn't matter.

THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT STREET DRIVEN CARS! It has nothing to do with if the car is street legal or not. The proposed regs say it is illegal for anyone to take a car that got a VIN and was originally certified emissions legal off the road and turn it into a race-only car OR alter any original emissions equipment that came in that car.

If you had a 69 Camaro that was never emissions certified, then no problem - these new EPA regs make it sound like they wouldn't care as long as you don't try to stick an LS1 out of a 99 Camaro into it. If you want to put the 99 LS1 engine into it, then you may be subject to getting it re-certified thru the EPA (which may require you to transfer ALL emissions control equipment out of the 99 Camaro into your 69 so it would meet 99 Camaro emissions standards).

If you have an 87 GN, then under these new regs, you had better leave it bone stock. Altering anything on the engine, intake, or exhaust could violate these new EPA regs. But you probably wouldn't be able to buy any parts for it unless the vendors of said parts get EPA certification for EVERYTHING they sell.

But forget about the aftermarket camshafts, manifolds, etc. for a moment. What is the one thing you need to be able to do in order to make any combination of ported factory or aftermarket parts work together correctly on a fuel injected engine? AN ECM TUNE. The ECM is an emissions control device. Under these new regs, it would be illegal for anyone to alter the programming in ANY production car ECM. And by extension, it would be illegal for ANY company to sell custom tuning software that had the ability to alter production ECM tunes.

ALSO, you could not buy an aftermarket ECU and stick it into your GN either unless that aftermarket ECU had EPA certification, which is going to be impossible to get for the reasons I illustrated earlier.

 

[Darth Fiero]

It could also be as small as $350 .. depends on the part

So how much is it going to cost HP Tuners to get certification for their custom tuning software? Can they even get certification from the EPA for that given what it is capable of letting an end user do with it?

 

[Darth Fiero]

I just don't get what is so hard for some of you people to understand about these new proposed regulations the EPA is trying to get passed. These new regs close all the loopholes we, in the performance community, have been using for years. No more being able to sell something for "off road use only" if it was designed to work with any vehicle that was originally emissions certified. That applies to probably 95% of what the vendors that cater to the Turbo Buick community sell right now. They would need to get certification from the EPA for all of those products, and I don't see the EPA handing out those certifications for most of what's available now. Nor do I see those vendors willing to spend $350 - $100,000 per product to get certification (if it is even offered).

Bottom line: If this comes to pass, it will have an immediate impact on the availability and cost of aftermarket performance products. Best case scenario: it will result in substantial price increases. Worst case scenario: products will become illegal to sell and the companies that make and sell them will be put out of business.

Summit and Jegs MIGHT still be able to stay in business selling intakes and carbs for 1950's and 60's small block Chevys. But much of what's available now for early 1970's and newer production cars and trucks will be illegal unless they could get certification from the EPA for each and every one of those parts.

 

[RANDALL]

The proposed regs say it is illegal for anyone to take a car that got a VIN and was originally certified emissions legal off the road and turn it into a race-only car OR alter any original emissions equipment that came in that car.

That is a clear and concise explanation of proposed legislation buried within 600+ pages. Proposed legislation also goes as far as stating fines for non-compliance, both owner and supplier of non-compliant parts or services. Maybe the folks at the EPA were bored and needed some practice in legislative writing skills or maybe there's the answer to this thread title.

...if this legislation is passed, we can always race a Buick powered dragster, altered or roadster...

 

[novaderrik]

the model that the EPA wants to use for what constitutes a "legal" part is what is done in the aviation industry... you can't modify ANYTHING on an aircraft engine that makes it any different than the way it was certified. this is EVERY part of the engine assembly- right down to the bolts that hold it together..
want to gain a few hundred rpm on the top end- better get yourself some certified valve springs that match the oem ones in every way.. and don't you dare touch those intake or head ports with a die grinder looking for a little extra airflow... only oem spec mufflers and exhaust systems would be allowed, too..