New EPA Regs Make Our Cars Illegal?

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
They can't do anything. They can't search your personal property without just cause. It doesn't matter if they know your name or anything else. They can see whatever they want. Won't matter at all. Are they going to grant everyone $$$ to make their cars comply? They aren't going to do dick. They'd have better luck playing pickup sticks with their butt cheeks. Millions of modified cars, different models, different engines.
The Feds have easy pickings with tax evaders. Much easier and much more to be gained and easier to prove.

You're missing the point. They aren't going to start with the millions of car owners. They're going to start by putting the thousands of performance aftermarket parts manufacturers, vendors, and service providers out of the business. But once they are done with that, they will then come after you - because there is still more money to be made.

What's the point of covering up your VIN tag and pulling the plates off your car if you can't buy parts to make it go fast? Hope you already have a stockpile in a warehouse full of anything and everything you will ever need. Because if this get implemented, you won't be able to buy anything specifically made for a Turbo Buick ever again - except maybe for wheels and stickers.

But I digress, once the parts supply is gone, nobody will be able to mod and nobody will be taking their cars racing. So the drag strips will be closed and there won't be anywhere for you to go or anything for your car to do that it was purpose-built for.
 

bison

Moderator
Staff member
You're missing the point. They aren't going to start with the millions of car owners. They're going to start by putting the thousands of performance aftermarket parts manufacturers, vendors, and service providers out of the business. But once they are done with that, they will then come after you - because there is still more money to be made.

What's the point of covering up your VIN tag and pulling the plates off your car if you can't buy parts to make it go fast? Hope you already have a stockpile in a warehouse full of anything and everything you will ever need. Because if this get implemented, you won't be able to buy anything specifically made for a Turbo Buick ever again - except maybe for wheels and stickers.
Why would they want to put anyone out of business? It would cost them billions in tax revenue.


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Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Why would they want to put anyone out of business? It would cost them billions in tax revenue.

I asked the same question when they passed the Waters Of The U.S. rule that screwed the farmers and raised food prices, but that didn't stop them from doing it, did it?

I asked the same question when they passed regulations that shut down coal mines, idled coal fired power plants, and raised everyone's electric bills by quite a bit. But that didn't stop them from doing it, did it?

IE: They don't give a crap about tax revenue. It's about pushing an agenda. It doesn't have to make sense to you and me.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
So what are you going to do besides blocking the VIN and taking the plate off of your race car? Give the track a false name so they don't announce your real name when you pull up to the line? Pull your car into the trailer and shut the door before opening the hood to work on it in between heats so a plain-clothes agent can't just casually walk by and see what you have in there? Are you going to remove the plates and hide the VINs on your trailer and tow vehicle too? Are you never going to post pictures of your car and it's mods on social media or the internet? Are you never going to pop your hood at a car show?

How hard would it be for a plain-clothes agent armed only with something as inconspicuous as a smart-phone to walk thru a car show field or the pits at the drag strip snapping pictures (pretending to be an interested car enthusiast) without you or anyone else being suspicious?

Do you really think it is going to be that difficult to enforce this?


To answer your question YES !!!

If you've ever had any interaction with the EPA "AGENTS" you wouldn't be asking how difficult it would be to enforce this ..

In the 80's and 90's when you had to go in for visual inspections and actually doing the dyno sniffer tests ... those EPA "AGENTS" couldn't tell a carburetor from a spark plug .
I couldn't tell you how many times I took my TTA in and just laughed .. if you really think they are all that capable of being able differentiate "stock Looking" non functional emissions parts
from functional parts .. you really need to rethink that .. people take the Buicks to Qualified mechanics and they look at the 3.8 turbo and have no clue of what they're looking at let alone
EPA "AGENTS "

Please tell me ( detailed explanation ) as to how they will enforce this .. so the "AGENTS" have smart phones and will take pictures ... OF WHAT ?

An internally blocked EGR , a Hollow Stock replacement CAT converter, the lift / duration of your camshaft , your ported Champion irons , a stock labeled Turbo Tweak Chip ,
a TA 49 under the stock turbo cover , your intank pump, a hotwire kit , that you run E85 ?

Get real man .. you think they are going to waste their time for 1% of vehicles out in the population ! they had to shutdown all the dyno rollers because of cost !

What your suggesting is not viable and the EPA knows it which is why they made PRE OBD 2 cars EXEMPT ... TOO COSTLY TO ENFORCE !!!
 

20psiofevil

Active Member
Why would they want to put anyone out of business? It would cost them billions in tax revenue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look to the coal industry. Besides that if they were to come after people like you and me they would have to use laws and have police to enforce the laws. Then you get into state vs federal, budget's and all that mess. I don't see the epa going after us small fish but do see them going after big companies that are not in compliance. As for engine modification's go I don't know how that would play out because you could have an oem block stuffed inside your rail car or non vin car. There's a lot of grey area still.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
I asked the same question when they passed the Waters Of The U.S. rule that screwed the farmers and raised food prices, but that didn't stop them from doing it, did it?

I asked the same question when they passed regulations that shut down coal mines, idled coal fired power plants, and raised everyone's electric bills by quite a bit. But that didn't stop them from doing it, did it?

IE: They don't give a crap about tax revenue. It's about pushing an agenda. It doesn't have to make sense to you and me.


Water of the US screwed the farmers .. HAHAHAH .. now that is funny .. you mean all the farmers that let chemical run offs from herbicides and pesticides run off into water supplies that people consumed ? you mean the same farmers that use seed coatings like poncho and gaucho that caused Colony collapse syndrome in bees ?
or is it the same farmers that use round up without regard just so they can be more profitable by using Monsanto's seed genetics because they are too lazy to cultivate ?
THOSE FARMERS ... PA LEEZE ... sometimes its good the EPA steps in !!
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
To answer your question YES !!!

Please tell me ( detailed explanation ) as to how they will enforce this .. so the "AGENTS" have smart phones and will take pictures ... OF WHAT ?

An internally blocked EGR , a Hollow Stock replacement CAT converter, the lift / duration of your camshaft , your ported Champion irons , a stock labeled Turbo Tweak Chip ,
a TA 49 under the stock turbo cover , your intank pump, a hotwire kit , that you run E85 ?

Get real man .. you think they are going to waste their time for 1% of vehicles out in the population ! they had to shutdown all the dyno rollers because of cost !

What your suggesting is not viable and the EPA knows it which is why they made PRE OBD 2 cars EXEMPT ... TOO COSTLY TO ENFORCE !!!

The proposed regulations state that you cannot TAMPER with ANY VEHICLE that got a VIN and was originally certified emissions compliant.

Seems to me the guy put out in the field to take pictures of cars at drag strips or car shows doesn't need to know what he is looking at. Just take a picture of the engine and VIN tag and send that to the one guy in the office they hired that DOES KNOW what he is looking at. Seems easy enough to me that the guy sitting in an office somewhere could see something has changed on that engine of yours compared to what it looked like from the factory (pictures of stock engine compartments, which, are readily available on the internet).

But they don't even have to do that much. All they have to do, at a drag strip, is see how fast your car goes. The data is already out there on the internet that says how fast a stock GN is in the 1/4 mile. Now if they see you run 10's in yours, I think it is pretty easy for them to determine you've tampered with something. And that would be all the proof they would need to get a judge to issue a subpoena to get your car inspected. If you try to quickly switch it back to stock, you could get nailed for tampering with evidence.
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Water of the US screwed the farmers .. HAHAHAH .. now that is funny .. you mean all the farmers that let chemical run offs from herbicides and pesticides run off into water supplies that people consumed ? you mean the same farmers that use seed coatings like poncho and gaucho that caused Colony collapse syndrome in bees ?
or is it the same farmers that use round up without regard just so they can be more profitable by using Monsanto's seed genetics because they are too lazy to cultivate ?
THOSE FARMERS ... PA LEEZE ... sometimes its good the EPA steps in !!

Same can be said about "dirty" coal mines and power plants. I'll check back with you to see if you are still laughing when you're paying $1000/mo in electric bills to keep the lights on in your 1500 sq/ft house.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
The proposed regulations state that you cannot TAMPER with ANY VEHICLE that got a VIN and was originally certified emissions compliant.

Seems to me the guy put out in the field to take pictures of cars at drag strips or car shows doesn't need to know what he is looking at. Just take a picture of the engine and VIN tag and send that to the one guy in the office they hired that DOES KNOW what he is looking at. Seems easy enough to me that the guy sitting in an office somewhere could see something has changed on that engine of yours compared to what it looked like from the factory (pictures of stock engine compartments, which, are readily available on the internet).

But they don't even have to do that much. All they have to do, at a drag strip, is see how fast your car goes. The data is already out there on the internet that says how fast a stock GN is in the 1/4 mile. Now if they see you run 10's in yours, I think it is pretty easy for them to determine you've tampered with something. And that would be all the proof they would need to get a judge to issue a subpoena to get your car inspected. If you try to quickly switch it back to stock, you could get nailed for tampering with evidence.


ARE you serious dude ..

Do you know how easy it is to have a 100% stock looking 10 second GN .. you need to spend some time at the dragstrip yourself ...

So what your saying is its not possible to have a 10 second emissions compliant GN ? BZZZ WRONG !!!!

just because you changed a part does NOT mean it violates the law ... what if its emissions compliant ? will the "AGENT" capture the emissions CERT from 10 feet ?
Dude give me a break ...

Not sure who's side your on here .. ours or the EPA's

how do we know you aren't an "AGENT" trolling !
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
Same can be said about "dirty" coal mines and power plants. I'll check back with you to see if you are still laughing when you're paying $1000/mo in electric bills to keep the lights on in your 1500 sq/ft house.


Don't need the electric company .. i'm on SOLAR ! and WIND .. backup is a propane generator .... plenty for my 1500 sqft house

any other scare tactics ?
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
ARE you serious dude ..

Do you know how easy it is to have a 100% stock looking 10 second GN .. you need to spend some time at the dragstrip yourself ...

So what your saying is its not possible to have a 10 second emissions compliant GN ? BZZZ WRONG !!!!

just because you changed a part does NOT mean it violates the law ... what if its emissions compliant ? will the "AGENT" capture the emissions CERT from 10 feet ?
Dude give me a break ...

Not sure who's side your on here .. ours or the EPA's

how do we know you aren't an "AGENT" trolling !

Post a picture of a 10 second GN's engine compartment that looks 100% bone stock then. Prove me wrong.
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Don't need the electric company .. i'm on SOLAR ! and WIND .. backup is a propane generator .... plenty for my 1500 sqft house

any other scare tactics ?

Assuming you're telling the truth about what you said above, can you say the same about everyone else you do business with or buy products from? Do you think they are NOT going to pass the increased cost of utilities on to you, the customer? Do you not see how all of this works?
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
ARE you serious dude ..

just because you changed a part does NOT mean it violates the law ... what if its emissions compliant ?

That's true. You can go down to your neighborhood Autozone and buy all the stock replacement parts you want for your car, all day long, and none of those will violate the emissions compliance laws.

But does Autozone sell aftermarket downpipes? Bigger intercoolers? Aftermarket camshafts? Aftermarket heads? Custom tuned chips so your engine runs right with all those parts? NOPE. And if the EPA gets their way and does what they stated they intend to do right off the bat, you aren't going to be able to buy them ANYWHERE.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
Assuming you're telling the truth about what you said above, can you say the same about everyone else you do business with or buy products from? Do you think they are NOT going to pass the increased cost of utilities on to you, the customer? Do you not see how all of this works?


When people face that pressure .. they will convert over as well ( especially when the government gives you INCENTIVES to use clean power .. you just have take advantage of whats being offered )

When fuel prices were $4.90 a gallon you saw a switch to E85 to help with price escalation .. people adapt
Other company come in with other methods and products to circumvent the stupidity being pushed ..

Stop with the scare tactics and think about what your suggesting rationally ... it serves no purpose for the EPA to try and enforce regulations on such a small group.. it's not financially viable for them ..

I was involved in EPA studies on E85 in 2002 .. believe me .. they aren't that smart or well funded .. especially with the current status of the economy / govt
Again I will bring this up .. there is a reason they shut down all the roller sniffer tests and reduced their workforce to bare bones... NO BUDGET !
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
That's true. You can go down to your neighborhood Autozone and buy all the stock replacement parts you want for your car, all day long, and none of those will violate the emissions compliance laws.

But does Autozone sell aftermarket downpipes? Bigger intercoolers? Aftermarket camshafts? Aftermarket heads? Custom tuned chips so your engine runs right with all those parts? NOPE. And if the EPA gets their way and does what they stated they intend to do right off the bat, you aren't going to be able to buy them ANYWHERE.

Not true .... will a down pipe make a vehicle NON compliant .. does it change emissions levels ? it will be very easy for a Aftermarket company to cert a downpipe as this won't do much for emissions .. if you take a stock GN and run a 3" downpipe to the factory CAT .. will it not pass ?

TRIED it !!! passes emissions no issue ...
Bigger intercooler .. does this alter emissions levels ?? will it not pass emissions with a front mount ??
TRIED it !!! passes emissions no issue ..

We can go round and round with EVERY part you can think of and there is a simple solution and way around it .. my point .. the EPA can't possibly keep up here .., and they know this
which is why they dropped the PRE ODB2 compliance ... to many loopholes people were exploiting .
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
When people face that pressure .. they will convert over as well ( especially when the government gives you INCENTIVES to use clean power .. you just have take advantage of whats being offered )

Incentives are great when they are being offered. Too bad the one for geothermal systems is ending this year. Others are being phased out as well.

When fuel prices were $4.90 a gallon you saw a switch to E85 to help with price escalation .. people adapt
Other company come in with other methods and products to circumvent the stupidity being pushed ..

And I'm sure some companies will step in and offer you a way out with custom, tube-chassis, purpose-built racecars you can buy to replace your GN at the dragstrip. Have fun paying for it.


Stop with the scare tactics and think about what your suggesting rationally ... it serves no purpose for the EPA to try and enforce regulations on such a small group.. it's not financially viable for them ..

Tell that to Casper's.


I was involved in EPA studies on E85 in 2002 .. believe me .. they aren't that smart or well funded .. especially with the current status of the economy / govt
Again I will bring this up .. there is a reason they shut down all the roller sniffer tests and reduced their workforce to bare bones... NO BUDGET !

I'll agree they aren't that smart. Personally, I think it's dumb for them to prevent people from doing things to their older cars that could actually make them run cleaner than they ever did from the factory. Would it not be more logical to allow anybody to do anything with any car or truck that makes it run as clean or cleaner than it did off the showroom floor? But that's not how the EPA works. Perhaps its because they aren't smart or well funded that makes them shape the policies the way they do (ie: don't TOUCH it at all).
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Not true .... will a down pipe make a vehicle NON compliant .. does it change emissions levels ? it will be very easy for a Aftermarket company to cert a downpipe as this won't do much for emissions .. if you take a stock GN and run a 3" downpipe to the factory CAT .. will it not pass ?

TRIED it !!! passes emissions no issue ...
Bigger intercooler .. does this alter emissions levels ?? will it not pass emissions with a front mount ??
TRIED it !!! passes emissions no issue ..

We can go round and round with EVERY part you can think of and there is a simple solution and way around it .. my point .. the EPA can't possibly keep up here .., and they know this
which is why they dropped the PRE ODB2 compliance ... to many loopholes people were exploiting .

WHO is going to pay for the certification? How much does it cost? Who has to run the cert tests? Surely the EPA won't allow you to run your own tests, in-house. Is the EPA going to conduct those cert tests for you for free? Or will those have to be run by a 3rd party firm that, I'm sure, will charge accordingly? Can every company afford that? Can you afford to buy performance parts for your car if they cost 10x more than they do now (because the cost of certifying a component for such a limited market is expensive, and those costs must be passed along to the customer)?

I don't know what you've been reading, but what I've been reading (directly from the EPA) in the proposed regulations states you cannot tamper with any vehicle that ever got a VIN and was emissions compliant.

[tam-per]
verb (used without object)
to meddle, especially for the purpose of altering; to make changes in something
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Let me see if I can explain this another way.

You want to take a front mount intercooler off a Ford Powerstroke diesel and put it in your GN. It passed emissions in the Ford, so you're good, right? NO.

The EPA says you can't tamper with any emissions certified device, which would include things like the engine. The EPA considers the intercooler as part of the engine unit since it was part of that engine in say, an 87 GN, when it was originally certified.

So you still think it will pass? Maybe your local and state sniffer tests, but they aren't run by the EPA. The EPA would have authority, under this new rule, to fine you because you altered (ie: tampered with) your GN's original certified configuration.

So you think you can get it certified? Ok, how? Does the EPA provide this service for free? If not, who provides this service and will they do it for free? If not for free, how much is it going to cost you? The EPA's own website says doing some things with certified vehicles is permitted, but only if re-certified, and they admit this would be cost-prohibitive.

So say a company wants to make downpipes for a GN. Under this new rule, they would not be able to legally sell them for the GN unless they got their product certified. How much does this certification cost? Can a company actually sell a limited quantity (say less than 200) downpipes, pay for the cert, and still turn a profit?

How about an ECM tune? The proposed EPA regs are clear: absolutely NO tampering with an emissions control device. Guess we can't use the stock ECM then. Just go buy an aftermarket ECU and throw it in your GN, right? WRONG. What aftermarket ECU has EPA certification? Is there any way possible an aftermarket ECU could possibly get certification, especially if they could be altered by the end user to produce higher emissions if a mistake was made in the tune? I don't think so.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
WHO is going to pay for the certification? How much does it cost? Who has to run the cert tests? Surely the EPA won't allow you to run your own tests, in-house. Is the EPA going to conduct those cert tests for you for free? Or will those have to be run by a 3rd party firm that, I'm sure, will charge accordingly? Can every company afford that? Can you afford to buy performance parts for your car if they cost 10x more than they do now (because the cost of certifying a component for such a limited market is expensive, and those costs must be passed along to the customer)?

I don't know what you've been reading, but what I've been reading (directly from the EPA) in the proposed regulations states you cannot tamper with any vehicle that ever got a VIN and was emissions compliant.

[tam-per]
verb (used without object)
to meddle, especially for the purpose of altering; to make changes in something


It doesn't take much to certify .. not much at all .. the road has already been paved and is far simpler than you would think ..

Excerpt from certification exemption :

Compliance Criteria parts are those for which there is no requirement for emission testing to demonstrate that the part does not cause an increase in emissions. Instead, only the submission of written documentation that the part is built as specified in the Compliance Criteria would be required to obtain an exemption from the prohibition of VC 27156 and VC 38391. To date, Compliance Criteria have been developed for:
1) Exhaust headers for non-feedback controlled catalyst-equipped vehicles;
2) Intake manifolds for non-EGR vehicles only;
3) Ignition systems (excluding distributors);
4) Ignition distributors; and
5) Intercoolers.

This is an older list but has been added to ..

in short your making something out of nothing .. just fueling the fire .. so carry on and worry yourself silly and I will just enjoy all the aftermarket offers to the GN's ..

Its going to be interesting to watch the EPA enforce emissions on all those mid 1930's Model T's too .. I bet the aftermarket is biting their nails on all the sales they will loose :)
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Its going to be interesting to watch the EPA enforce emissions on all those mid 1930's Model T's too .. I bet the aftermarket is biting their nails on all the sales they will loose :)

Proof right there you haven't even read the proposed regulations...

Were model T's ever emissions certified? NO.

The proposed regs clearly state any vehicle that received a VIN and was emissions certified cannot be tampered with. This obviously does not apply to the Model T since emissions certifications did not exist back when it was made. It does, however, apply to your GN. So everybody that sells parts for your GN is going to have to get certifications for every product they sell. If it's so cheap and easy, why haven't they done it already?

But this is all a moot point without considering the ECU tune. How are you going to get certification on a custom ECU tune? Companies providing this service would have to cert each individual tune on each car it was made for. How on earth is that practical?

Do you think a company that makes aftermarket ECUs that are tuneable by the end-user could ever get certification for their product? Especially when the end-user would be capable of making a mistake in the tune that could increase emissions output of the engine?
 
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