New EPA Regs Make Our Cars Illegal?

turbo89

Well-Known Member
By then, it'll be too late.

This isn't a new "law" folks. This is a regulation. Totally different animal. There is no congressional oversight. This is an in-house rule "change" that is being proposed at the EPA. You and I have no say over it. Right now the only thing that is keeping it from being implemented is a final ruling this coming summer.

EPA officials have already stated they only intend (at least initially) to go after the aftermarket performance parts manufacturers and service providers - not individual car owners. But I have to believe it isn't going to stop after all the aftermarket performance parts manufacturers and service providers are forced to close. There are substantial fines they can impose on private individuals, and I believe they intend to collect as much in fines as they can.

Enforcement can be done easily enough with a PC and internet connection. THINK ABOUT IT. (Company websites, social media postings, etc).


Again there are many ways around the statutes ... just look at all the cars running dummy CAT convertors , or cars that go in for emissions that quickly go from "RACE mode " to emissions approved mode ..

Are they really going to put a sniffer stop on public roads and check all cars ? How many HOT RODDERS are they really going to fine to make it not be a resource / funding issue .. not gonna happen

going after service providers.. sure that is a simple one that they can go after .. but there are many ways around that as well.
Current EPA emissions standards aren't even tested in ILLINOIS now ... its a simple No Code / No problem test ... its so simple to get around its not even funny...
They have no effective way to enforce it ...

What they are doing is putting panic in people for a reason ... think about what is being pushed
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
This isn't a law. The EPA is calling it a rules change or "clarification". It needs no congressional approval to be passed. It only needs in-house EPA approval (which is scheduled for this summer).

How hard do you think it is going to be for the EPA to fine companies that want to sell you performance parts for your street car? All they have to do is go to that company's website and see what they are selling parts for. Think about how many vendors who support the Turbo Buick community and how many of them only sell performance parts for the Turbo Buick community. How hard do you think it would be for the EPA to find one of those companies in violation of this proposed regulation since the proposed regulation says if the car has a VIN, you can't sell any un-certified (for emissions) parts for it???

If a vendor's website storefront isn't enough evidence, all they would have to do is order a part from said vendor and that would probably be all the proof they would need to impose the fine.


Its not as bad as you make it out to be .. the vendors get compliance certs on products ... simple to do and not very pricey at all ...

A lot of items don't even need a Cert as they directly wont cause emissions issues ..
don't blow this out of proportion .. they simply don't have the resources to do what your suggesting .. it would take MAJOR funding ... again why do you think they have closed so MANY testing facilities .

Personally even if they did a sniffer test ... what are you worried about .. its not like a turbo buick CANT pass .. lots and lots of ways to pass :)
 

jiho2

Sporadic Poster
That's right, it's a regulation, not a law. Law gives EPA authority to make regulations. The regulations are EPA's decision (up to a point, naturally).

As for enforcement, races are sanctioned and regulated already. The EPA could require sanctioning bodies to do their inspections and enforcement for them. They already do both, just not for this particular regulation.

Will happen? Who knows.
 

turbo89

Well-Known Member
That's right, it's a regulation, not a law. Law gives EPA authority to make regulations. The regulations are EPA's decision (up to a point, naturally).

As for enforcement, races are sanctioned and regulated already. The EPA could require sanctioning bodies to do their inspections and enforcement for them. They already do both, just not for this particular regulation.

Will happen? Who knows.


Not in my life time
 

jiho2

Sporadic Poster
As for parts manufacturers, Casper's got busted once, lest we forget. That can be an effective way to choke things off at the pass (pun intended). You can't do much without parts.

Could this rule be continuing revenge from the old school crowd, the same Big Iron Big Block boys who got the Turbo Regal isolated into its own little class? Tying to get it effectively banned from the track entirely? Maybe these LS guys were the last straw for them. But the rule would also apply to an awful lot of late '60s, early '70s muscle cars, so ironically, that crowd should be your best friend now.
 
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Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Again, this is straight from the SEMA website:

The EPA is adding new language to the regulations. This new language states that a motor vehicle can never be modified, even if it is used solely for competition and never again used on public roads. The EPA is seeking to prohibit modifications affecting any emissions-related component, such as engines, engine control modules, intakes, exhaust systems, etc.

The EPA agrees that vehicles that were originally manufactured for racing are excluded from regulation under the Clean Air Act. However, the EPA believes this exclusion extends only to vehicles that were never certified for on-road use or issued a VIN.

It is the EPA’s position that they will be able to enforce against vehicles that have already been converted in the past. While the EPA has indicated that it does not currently plan on enforcing against individuals, it does plan on going after the companies supplying parts for vehicles that have already been converted. So, if you have a racecar that began life as a street car, this regulation would affect your access to parts, and leave you open to enforcement if the agency so chooses.
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
Also something worth mentioning:

A good friend of mine is an AACA member and recently attended a meeting with SEMA representatives. In that meeting there was speculation that the automotive manufacturers are behind these new regs (ie: they lobbied the EPA to get them to implement these rule changes). Makes sense since the manufacturers recently lost their legal battle attempting to copyright their cars:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/27/copyright-dmca-gearheads-can-repair-modify-cars/

Why would they (the car companies) lobby the EPA to put more restrictions on gearheads? Well, they don't make any money if you don't buy NEW cars. It stands to reason that they believe the longer you keep your old car(s) on the road, the less often you will buy a new car.
 

jiho2

Sporadic Poster
I was thinking about this earlier this evening. I could swear GM actually wrote the California smog rules.
 

RANDALL

Banned
Say 50 cars show up at your favorite local track for a typical race day, not a special event; dirt, drag, road race, whatever. Say 25% have not been "tampered" with or were purpose built. The EPA Gestapo cites "offenders", at $3,750 per violation, pay the EPA $140,000 in total.

One track, one time, $140K, that's pretty good enforcement incentive.

Perplexing is the attitude that regulations/laws are acceptable as long as they aren't enforced.
 

MCH86GN

Well-Known Member
Another thing to watch out for is the new cyber security requirement coming from certain OEMs. I work for a supplier and we have to be complaint by 2018. No longer does the security algorithm reside on the embedded processor, the algorithm will now reside on a PC or tool and OEM owns the algorithm. It's going to make it tougher to crack security on a module. If you can't unlock module security, you can't change tune.
 

bison

Moderator
Staff member
Say 50 cars show up at your favorite local track for a typical race day, not a special event; dirt, drag, road race, whatever. Say 25% have not been "tampered" with or were purpose built. The EPA Gestapo cites "offenders", at $3,750 per violation, pay the EPA $140,000 in total.

One track, one time, $140K, that's pretty good enforcement incentive.

Perplexing is the attitude that regulations/laws are acceptable as long as they aren't enforced.
Lol. They can't hold you hostage and you don't need to give them your VIN or any other information about the car. You can get in your car and drive away. They can't physically stop you. Local police won't give a shit and won't help them. Most of them have high performance cars themselves.


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RANDALL

Banned
You can get in your car and drive away.

Good luck with that, until you open your mailbox. Everyone does fill out a tech card when racing, correct?

Perplexing is the attitude that regulations/laws are acceptable as long as they aren't enforced.
 
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MCH86GN

Well-Known Member
Good luck with that, until you open your mailbox. Everyone does fill out a tech card when racing, correct?

Perplexing is the attitude that regulations/laws are acceptable as long as they aren't enforced.
Hey, I hate to get off topic here but do you still have the hemco plenum for sale?
 

bison

Moderator
Staff member
Good luck with that, until you open your mailbox. Everyone does fill out a tech card when racing, correct?

Perplexing is the attitude that regulations/laws are acceptable as long as they aren't enforced.
Tech card won't matter. Why would a drag strip give up your information anyway? Because some dick heads asked for it? Good luck in them releasing personal info. I block the the VIN from plain site on my cars when I run them. No one needs to see it. Don't need a plate on it either. The vehicle is what they would need to assess before they could try and enforce anything. They can't do dick if you don't give them access. What are they going to do? Arrest everyone there because they won't give them access to their cars? That is funny.


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bison

Moderator
Staff member
Hey, I hate to get off topic here but do you still have the hemco plenum for sale?
He probably scrapped it because the Feds are going to fine him for running it on a motor vehicle and they might trace the sale of it to someone who might install on a motor vehicle


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RANDALL

Banned
Tech card won't matter. Why would a drag strip give up your information anyway? Because some dick heads asked for it? Good luck in them releasing personal info. I block the the VIN from plain site on my cars when I run them. No one needs to see it. Don't need a plate on it either. The vehicle is what they would need to assess before they could try and enforce anything. They can't do dick if you don't give them access. What are they going to do? Arrest everyone there because they won't give them access to their cars? That is funny.

Subpoena /səˈpiːnə/ (also subpœna) is a writ issued by a government agency, most often a court, to compel testimony by a witness or production of evidence under a penalty for failure.

Why cover your VIN? Why no plates? What's next, putting your car back in the trailer under lock and key between rounds/heats?
 

Darth Fiero

3800 Series II Turbo
I block the the VIN from plain site on my cars when I run them. No one needs to see it. Don't need a plate on it either. The vehicle is what they would need to assess before they could try and enforce anything.

So what are you going to do besides blocking the VIN and taking the plate off of your race car? Give the track a false name so they don't announce your real name when you pull up to the line? Pull your car into the trailer and shut the door before opening the hood to work on it in between heats so a plain-clothes agent can't just casually walk by and see what you have in there? Are you going to remove the plates and hide the VINs on your trailer and tow vehicle too? Are you never going to post pictures of your car and it's mods on social media or the internet? Are you never going to pop your hood at a car show?

How hard would it be for a plain-clothes agent armed only with something as inconspicuous as a smart-phone to walk thru a car show field or the pits at the drag strip snapping pictures (pretending to be an interested car enthusiast) without you or anyone else being suspicious?

Do you really think it is going to be that difficult to enforce this?
 

bison

Moderator
Staff member
They can't do anything. They can't search your personal property without just cause. It doesn't matter if they know your name or anything else. They can see whatever they want. Won't matter at all. Are they going to grant everyone $$$ to make their cars comply? They aren't going to do dick. They'd have better luck playing pickup sticks with their butt cheeks. Millions of modified cars, different models, different engines.
The Feds have easy pickings with tax evaders. Much easier and much more to be gained and easier to prove.


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bison

Moderator
Staff member
Subpoena /səˈpiːnə/ (also subpœna) is a writ issued by a government agency, most often a court, to compel testimony by a witness or production of evidence under a penalty for failure.

Why cover your VIN? Why no plates? What's next, putting your car back in the trailer under lock and key between rounds/heats?
I cover the VIN because I don't want random people entering the info into their databases. I don't bother with removing plates.


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